brokers

[Tman]

Do any of you have specific information on the bad reputation of PWS?

[Chuckels]

YES,

They are brokers!

Chuckels

PS. What part of ca are you looking at them in?

[Andy]

Do you have a story for us Tman?

[Kitty]

Yes, spill the dirt, it can give great info to an unsuspecting soul if these guys are unscrupulous. Plus, we love dirt.

[harry]

You can buy machines from them if you know the price to deal.
Their parts is the most expensive. Their laundromat price is high too. Their service is good. I got some free advices from them.

[Tman]

Actually I do have a story....I'm not looking for a laundromat. They have already sold me one. It has turned out to be a horrible situation and I am having to pursue the situation,if you know what I mean. I'm a little hesitant even to give out information because I imagine a lot of people in the laundry business check this stuff out. Let's just say it was a very crooked deal and the more I check into things , the more I find out this has happened to a lot of owners. We are in the middle of a legal battle with them and I've found out that many have tried to do the same thing (because of the horrible things theyve done) but have not had any success because they cannot afford the battle. I'm looking for info that will help in the fight.....Tman

[Tman]

I should probably emphasize that the people in this industry that I have found to have the most integrity all seem to have the same horrible opinion of pws as well as the knowledge of the many people who have had their dreams torn apart and their lives turned upsidedown as a result of what this company will do to sell a business (laundromat)....tman

[Kitty]

Tman,

Oh I feel for you honey, not sure what your situation is, but I can tell you from first hand experience it probably does not matter what business you purchased, anyone can give you cooked books and useless information to sway a deal to close. I was 24 and purchased a restaurant that was dead in the water, with the deal I had made. The deal would have been good if any of the numbers I were given had some accuracy. Learned alot in a few years, shed a bunch of tears and watched my dream slip away as there was no way to make ends meet with the debt I held against the store. However, as I have aged a bit, and learned that while my view through rose colored glasses is a good thing at times, they are not to be used whenever business and money is concerned. Many, many people, including me want the american dream and are easily ripped off. Due diligence is what make a great buy and any pruchase based on anything else may not be what you thought you were getting?

I am sure we would all like to hear your horror story as information like yours will help others not to make the same mistakes and not be mislead by unscypulous souls.

I sincerely hope, you make out ok regarding this hell you've gotten your self into. I am also sure if you have any questions or are in need of advice there are many here who would be happy to assist you.

Chin up, Kitty

[Kitty]

Do these brokers have a website, address or any key information? BBB is online and information can be obtained on the BBB website if this information is available.

[Lar Hylobates]

Yes PWS does have a website. That is how I originally contacted them.

I bought my store, they brokered the deal. They are scumbags and since I have learned much about their organization and some of their individual and cummulative under handed dealings.

They tried real hard to burn me, I probably got lucky or my keen need to burn others was just too much for them. I ended up closing my store on not too terrible terms and through a little work turned this dog into a swan.

Tman...I bought a store that was originally built by PWS, sold to an individual and years later sold to me. PWS brokered each deal. They had a good knowledge of the store through out the years and apparently a "closer" releationship with the seller. As far as I am concerned they supplied me with documentation and statements that indicated previous and future returns that were absolutely impossible based on the layout and vend ability of the store, ie: documentable lying. This is what you should look for.

Of course, you should also note, their standard purchase agreements hold them harmless of all wrong and furthermore do not allow you to include projections and past earnings as a guarantee to your sale. This strategy works for them, however is directly contrary to the way most other sales are conducted as far as I have seen since my dealings with them.

[Kitty]

What is the web address?

[Chuckels]

Tman,

You have deepened the intrigue surrounding your predicament. If you would share your experience here among your trusted friends than perhaps someone can better understand and reply so as to assist you accordingly. By the same token we may all learn what to avoid in the future when making a deal whether with PWS, other brokers or sellers.

My closest dealing with them was once in San Diego when Harry was at the helm. There was a large store he had listed for sale but when I checked it out personally the guy who said he was the owner told me it was NOT for sale. I then mentioned it to Harry who insisted that it really was for sale. I let it go at that.

I have heard various things about some leases that they structured that in effect PWS sublets the property and sometimes also requires them to purchase any new equip through PWS.

Let us know what is going on.

Chuckels

[pete f]

Can me make this lemon into lemonade?

From what I have seen, only about 50% of all laundromats are *real* winners, the rest just do OK. In reality very few close down for good, so that says some sort of living is eeked out of even the worst ones. And the other thing I learned years ago, it takes money to make money.

You probably would be better off spending your money on new machines rather than lawyers. More than 1 dog has been turned around, and very marginal mats can made into OK mats with some work. If you want to spill your guts and ask for advice you will get that here. Most of us have seen what works and what has not in many different markets and mat sizes. Nobody like to see anyone have difficulty (unless it is the new guy across the street) so welcome to the ownership of a laundromat, now you can see we don't get to keep all the quarters, and there is more to it than just collecting them!
At best it is get rich slow.

[MRH]

Kitty or Anyone else that's interested

www.pwslaundry.com

[Tman]

Thanks for the responses....I have someone VERY good helping me with the case who also is a close family friend. So I am able to put money back into the store and not get sucked dry by the battle. The store itself though only breaks even and even that's only because I'm not paying the main loan right now by advice of the proceedings. From what I've heard though, many have been sucked dry by PWS when they tried to legally pursue justice after being trampled and lied to. I've been told by a company of integrity in the business that a group of owners even tried to pursue PWS because they were hurting so many people and reselling the same stores over and over and over. But in each case either there wasn't the $ to fight, or proving what a broker is actually responsible for is tuff to do. The paperwork I was given, from the age of the machines to coin counts were falsified. The broker agent even cut himself in on the loan deal. And that's only the beginning. I got married the same year I got this store....and after what they did to me, I'm fighting this one for me, my wife and the zillions of others that have been thrashed by this company. People say, " you won't be able to do anything; they're too big of a company. They have too many lawyers"....but I'm not letting them get away with it. I may sound idealistic, but actually I'm totally worn out and have no choice.....I need your help. Any infor mation that can make a difference. I know there's a bunch of people that are out there hurting bad because of this company. By myself I don't know if I can do it but if I can get more information, there might be a chance...a good chance. Tman

[Kitty]

"The paperwork I was given, from the age of the machines to coin counts were falsified."

Tman, is this a projection they "falsified'?

Have you contacted the CLA as well as the other people you have found that have also been lied to and trampled upon? There may be something the association can do. (I suppose this may be a good reason to be a member?) You do need someone to help you out and fight it, if they indeed misrpresented themselves.

Does your area have a reporter that does the "trouble shooter" segments? The reporter reports on consumers who have been railroaded.............Keep us informed on your details and great luck with your case.

[pete f]

I do not mean to bust your case, but I am a "take the other side" person sometimes just to get all the facts. Your purchase agreement should have spelled out numbers from previous owner. If you have real proof of falsified numbers, than you have a day in court.. However, in real life those numbers can change quickly.. `now, if you put little money down and planned on this store paying for itself then you might have bought a negative cash project which you have to work to boot..
Without all the facts there is not much anyone here can do for you. It sounds like you went in undercapitalized, there is no law to help you out if that is the case..if you really got taken then call the dept of business and professional regulation.

[Lar Hylobates]

Pete,

PWS insists on their own purchase agreement. I may have a copy of one if I look, but I remember it outlined about 20 separate points, mainly disallowing any responsibility to PWS and all projections, etc. are removed from the deal at close, and certainly never become part of a binding agreement. Essentially the sale is Legally "as-is" with no projections, even though that is certainly the base of the purchase.


I personally will never do it like this again, as I want the previous owner to be somewhat liable to his lies.

[Kitty]

Now, what was it that you guys said was the reasons bank statements are not good judges for income?

I suppose it was that a person could add to the revenue? But why would one do this, as it will have to be reported as income and become taxable? I would gather more often than less, a person could underreport income. Thus always the need to check water usuages.

New stores........any store any business would be very difficult to project the income. One friend of mine did a projection for 1% of his biz, never even maintained the 1%. His problem, location.

[mike]

Tman, I hope this doesn't ruin your day, (oops, too late) but,
I wouldn't rush to make this store work ! In effect, you are cutting your own legs out from under any legal recourse you may have had against the vendor !

In any court proceeding, the main point is NOT whether they lied or misrepresented the facts, it is whether or not you suffered financially as a consequence.

In other words, if you make this store profitable, you have no case !!

I know it ain't right, but what ya gunna do ?

[CharlieS]

Tman -
Of course, you are in CA, and I am in VA, so the law may vary significantly.

Even though your contract may specify that any projections made by PWS are not guaranteed, this will not protect them against outright fraud. The difficulty is that it is your obligation as plaintiff in a civil suit to prove the fraud. I don't know the legal definition of fraud, but if they provided sales data and other specific historical information which was false, that would certainly constitute fraud on the part of either the broker or the seller.

All of this being said, the sad fact is that you will probably not see the fruits of your labors. It will probably cost you more than you will collect to pursue this case.

Get together all of your information, get a really good lawyer (that you can afford), and make your best decision.

One of your best hopes may be to try and join up with other owners and get a mulitple action suit against these guys. If you can show a continuing pattern of fraud and deceit, you would have a much greater chance of obtaining punitive damages, which is where your big money may lie.

Charlie

[Jay]

I'm a CA Real Estate broker with a legal background. You might want to try going after PWS's broker's license. The CA Dept. of Real Estate (DRE) regulates all business brokers and real estate brokers. In fact, as far as licensing goes, a business broker is a real estate broker and vice versa. The DRE has a complaint procedure that you can use to go after PWS. Go to their website and look around. You can find out who the individual broker of record for PWS is and how to file a complaint.
It may help you to get others who have been mistreated by PWS to file complaints as well. I'd recommend finding a real estate or consumer law attorney that has already done this sort of thing with the DRE. A little experience goes a long way.
If you win, PWS might get its license yanked which would really be bad for them. And you'd most likely be able to use your administrative victory as evidence in a civil trial against PWS. Also, if you can prove damages to the DRE, you may be able to get their bond.

Here's the website.
http://www.dre.cahwnet.gov/default.htm

Good luck!

[Kitty]

IN order to check the PWS licenses and the employee licenses. Go to http://www.refdesk.com/ Then down to public records search. I found the licenses for the PWS an their employees, only one employee had a complaint on file.

[Lar Hylobates]

Which one??

[Howard]

Just in case you didn't know, the great majority of business brokers are not real estate agents (and often team up with one is the business involves land).
These brokers can be negotiated. It isn't too difficult to turn a 10% (on paper) commission into 5% reality when the difference is making the sale or not.

[Tman]

Jay, Kitty, and everyone else....thanks for staying on this subject with me. I have found another owner who was totally frauded also. In addition , I have a couple contacts in the business who know of many more. I've also talked to the president of one of the coin-op laundry associations that you've probably all heard of and his immediate attitude toward PWS was one of discust. Thanks again for all the details and please keep the communication going , not only for this case but also for the many others that can fall into the trap....
God Bless, Tman