Affordable multi coin option poll

[mjwalsh]

Golden dollar coins guaranteed not mixed with Susan B's until year 2019 & longer. Here is the link (cut & paste) to the mint info

http://www.usmint.gov/mint_programs/$1coin/index.cfm?flash=yes

By multicoin, I am including as an option a third coin besides the quarter & dollar which could be the Canadian Tooney or a secure dollar token. If very soon the engineers do get such an affordable & adaptable user friendly single slot with coin return multicoin drop, it would help offset the handful of quarters for our larger washer situation. I can't imagine anyone not at least wanting it as a standby more affordable option to an in house card system.

Remember a "yes" vote on this survey does not mean that cards can't still be an option. In fact, if we get enough "yes" votes maybe we can convince the bill acceptor companies to allow us to have a credit card to token option on our existiong bil acceptors saving us wall space compared to credit card to token only machines. This would satisfy the credit card crowd & still keep credit cards low key enough so dangerous transaction fees can be kept at bay.

The optional token can be easily separated & counted by most counters because the counter sees them as a fifty cent piece of which very few are around anymore. This has been tested & proven in the coin op car wash industry.

[TLR]

K.i.s.s.

Tlr

[Coinwash]

K.i.s.s.

Tlr
I think this is what you mean? ;)
I'm sure most of you can fill in the final word for the KISS acronym ("Keep It Simple Stupid" for those not indoctrinated with North American icons). This most wise principle can be applied to nearly every facet of life and business, and seems to be adopted in direct proportion to experience level. The more we know about any subject, the more we seem to be able to find the elegant and simple solutions ;)

[mjwalsh]

When you make up your mind on the poll, a yes vote of course would be on the condition the retrofit would also be pretested & like you say kept simple & straightforward for us operators.

Like I said I am having trouble with people who want to eliminate a potentially worthwhile option. I would not have discouraged the in house mag cards before they established their option; so if someone had a poll on that 10 years ago I definitely would have been for the ability to consider another feasible option. Even though it may not have appeared feasible at that time.

I have posted in the past about how well the token, quarter, dollar coin, multicoin mechanisms have worked out for us car wash operators. I have also posted that the laundry drop coin mechanisms are not as good of quality & technology as the car wash multicoin yet the cost per unit of the existing laundry mechs are real close & even more than the car wash electronic drop coins. I shudder to think what would have happened if the car wash associations & if the car wash operators would have discouraged the manufacturers from innovating & giving us that option over 15 years ago.

Giving a yes vote does not mean you are going to proceed with the multicoin but you would like that option & encourage the exploration of that option. If I were going through the process of adapting these better coin mechs to retrofit to the existing equipment & keeping it affordable, I probably would need assurance that people would at least consider it because it could eventually prove to be a better choice of product.

Most operators have coin slides on their soap machines. About 5 years ago we went with a multicoin drop on our new soap machine & that was one of the better things we did. Even without the ability to give change it would still be a worthwhile improvement.

Again a "yes" vote would hinge on the ability to K.I.S.S. Thanks for reminding me. A large yes vote could act as a catalyst for some very capable manufacturers where everybody can be a winner!

[mjwalsh]

I honestly think & feel the laundry operators who do not want to give the "dollar coin" & the very likely potential of more affordable & better quality multi-coin drops a fair chance are shooting themselves in the foot. The quarter look alike Susan B & the unavailable Sacagawea was not a fair chance. Both of those problems have been addressed by written law which wasn't the case before.

I have another similar poll over at the CLA's forum named "Payment Options" where a "yes" could also be helpful. Since Coinwash is not too proud to show up at the partially CLA sponsored "Cleanshow" I think we will be OK with some common ground.

[pete f]

I have not voted yet, I am not sure which way to go. Years ago I was all for multi coin drop. I even spent much time at a booth clean '99 that had a multi coin drop for sale. My changer guy tested it, the thing would take almost anything that resembled a coin, so no good. Then there was the retrofit issue to make them work on many machines. He spent much time on it, and again lately on multi drop again for another customer. In the end, it does not seem worth it now. The Set O Matic card slide is about the same price as a multi drop. You eliminate the sorting, and add security. Yes, there is a price to pay, card fees.When I go to Home Depot or Alberstons, a grocery store, they have self checkouts. Many swipe a debit/credit card. I know that many of our customers are the bottom of the lifestyle chain, scraping by, so a debit card or even a bank account could very well be out of thier reach. And we will always continue to have these customers. To use multi coins we need multi changers. Rowe BC1200 has 2 hopper, you can fill one with $1 and one with .25, so a $5 bill could dispense $3 coin and $2 in quarters. The cost of my last card system was not much more than the multi coin drop for readers, and if you have to buy different changers to dispense different coins then that money could pay for most of the card dispensor/VTM costs. I do not see significant difference in cost of conversions to the owner, and the time to sort vs the card benifits do not add up equally to me. Stick with quarters, or tokens. I think it is almost easier to have a bill acceptor like on a soda machine in a central place near "X" number of washers so a customer puts in bills and press a button to send that balance to thier machine. They then finish off with whatever quarters are needed to start it. Or just put bill acceptors at each machine. This will never happen either. Back to cards.
I do know most manufactors have machines for export with dual coin drops. What is up with that?

[mjwalsh]

Pete F,

These two polls that I mentioned are a lot like a petition to give people the opportunity to have the option to proceed in a particular way.

Whether we proceed later on hinges on whether the manufacturer can or does their part in making these multicoin drops fit & work properly & be of less cost than the card systems. When I have visited with some the manufacturers of proven multicoin drops one of the big issues is this: Are there enough of us laundry operators who are interested in the multicoin if the conditions are all met like I described including the cost.

I have nothing personal against Set O Matic but their coin drops are dual instead of multicoin single drop like I am referring to. Also I am squirming about the extra time involved passing the bar code reader across their device on every single machine vs the retrofit credit to token that could be real time processing & interface directly with a database. With all due respect, the coin op car wash multicoin drops is better technology because for the most part you aren't stuck with a specific coin or token size or compostion.

You have a point about some people having too few of hoppers etc. In my case I have 4 hoppers on with 2 separate Standard 600EF changers & possibly adding another 4 hopper changer if we increase the size of our facility. I don't know if Kris Kious is monitoring CoinWash these days but my understanding with him was that Coin Op Laundry operator interest in the retrofit was a bigger factor than the technical obstacles. Their production is at this time their lower end bill changer series for credit card to token but it is a stand alone machine. They are set up already to support credit card to token so we are not too far off. Also, a distributor in the coin op car wash industry on the west coast told me if there was enough support he was going to proceed with a Hamilton Changer retrofit because it is within his range. I also am sure that the bill changer companies' other industries are concerned about wall space if the operator needs the ability to accept credit cards in the card to token more low key way.

A vote "yes" is just to let the manufacturers know that there are enough of us who would like to have the option of an affordable multicoin drop similar to the ones that have been used & proven in the coin op car wash industry for over 15 years. It is hard to predict exactly how good the manufacturers will be but I have been told that it is feasible & the obstacle of height has been overcome.

Let's say we have a 50 machine store. 50 * 150 = 7500. Hi speed Cummins counter 4000. Bill changer retrofit probably less than 1000. Another 1500 possibly for an optional PLC. Somewhere between 7.5K & 15K a smaller or medium size store could have a pretty deluxe payment system. Even if the card store could match the price it seems this 3 fold or provisions for the 3 fold acceptance would be more complete & customer friendly than a card store.

Another consideration will be in respect to the multi coin retrofits is how difficult the faceplace would be to batch produce enough of the faceplates so the drops could be adapted to other machines with a different size coin & money box area? A less expensive material could be used than the equivalent coin op car wash multi coin drop so in my opinion it is do-able. Technology has improved & is improving everyday as long as we aren't trying to change the laws of gravity etc.

A "yes" is saying if the manufacturers get this far along we are interested. If too many say "no" I am afraid the manufacturers will not even try.

I appreciate all input because I believe there is room for different approaches depending upon the operator, his area, & him trying to make things as future proof as possible. I think that having cards as an option is great but I do not like being forced to use just cards & no other option in case the card people get too much power & start abusing that power & control over all our commerce including local. Remember the chaos after New Orlean's Katrina, the people with cash got by better according to the news.

[anonymous]

Manufacturers most likely don't give a hoot to what some biased poll on a bbs has to say. The portion of the industry represented is so tiny and the people that frequent a bbs may not be representative of the industry as a whole.

Accepting a dollar coin really has little if any value to the customer, it only helps the owner - so why would customers want it given that the public does not like dollar coins (or $2 bills).

A better option would be a multi coin acceptor that accepted both quarters and a smaller denomination coin - not a larger denomination. Coin store owners are always behind the cost push curve and a hesitant to raise prices due to their inability to do anything but increase by 25 cents. If they had a coindrop that would accept quarter and nickels then they could raise prices in 5 cent increments.

[mjwalsh]

cleancloths,

I proceeded with this poll because manufacturers told me that if they thought people were interested in multi coin enough & the cc card to tokens, they would be more likely to invest their resources. Remember I am mostly referring to retrofit kits that would adapt to existing equipment so we aren't filling up our landfills too quick.

Also the arguments for "Yes" could convince the manufacturers that the "mother of invention or innovation is need" criteria is finally met could be a factor.

I have dimes & quarters on my dryers. I have multi coin drops on soap, candy, pop, & internet kiosk that accept dimes & nickels. It seems that it is more the customer wanting to get rid of their loose change when it comes to dimes & nickels. It might differ in your area though. In years past when the cost of living was less, nickels & dimes did make more sense then. We definitely want to give the customer the option of using the new "history lesson" President Dollar Coins. The argument for fewer coins to handle I believe outweighs the nickel or dime increment advantage. I do respect your opinion though.

Other added benefits. The multi coin drop would be less likely to jam than a slide & on any brand of machine that has a similar start mechanism as the W74, it would solve the problem of a customer pushing the slide in twice with the door wide open. This requires about 7 advances or so manually on the start mechanism. With the multi coin drop the start mechanism would no longer be needed.

[mjwalsh]

If would be nice to get full participation to get the "Yes" numbers up. Having said that, a small sampling along with accurate facts based on actual experience seems to be the value of "responsible freedom of the press" ....isn't it. Maybe that is what makes some of the better forums on the internet worthwhile. Let's see now, is that not part of our constitution. Is this another "history lesson" besides the new President Coins? How good can this get!

[pete f]

what about the dual coin drops that are avail now? This would seem to solve the problem. Then only problem being I only see them on export machines. I would consider dual drops if they were not expensive. I am thinking the multi coin lessons secuirty, maybe this is why those manufactors do not want to mess with it. I know my soda machine takes anything, but it has alot of space for the coin mech to sit in, not an option with most laundy machines. Back to the dual coin drop, what is up with them?

[mjwalsh]

Pete F,

Dual coin drop for just dollar coins & quarters? It seems to me that one that takes at least 3 coins or combination of 2 coins & a secure non duplicable token & costs very little more would be more future proof. That way an operator could accommodate the credit card customers via a credit card to token retrofit on their existing changers.

If the capable manufacturers get too many "No" votes or total apathy we'll be on even shakier ground for getting them to adapt their existing proven drops & at a practical cost to us.

With the new President coins & better technology we have a better chance than when you made your efforts back in 1999. The larger area that is required by soda machines etc have a lot to do with their ability to give change & the fact they are not the much smaller height yet reliable electronic ones.

I wouldn't get in too much of a hurry & settle for the existing dual or multi coin drops unless they were in the price range that I described & you knew the reliability was tested good enough. A "Yes" vote is contingent on some manufacturers actually getting to that point. These could be manufacturers that are new to the coin op laundry industry but see the potential & are willing to go to work on them for us. There is definitely work involved to make it so they will mount properly & get the height close enough to both fit & work. Bringing the faceplate out seems to be another issue. I know on my dual coin ADC 285 dryers that take quarters & dimes it is a matter of switching the existing switched wires. On washers if the timers has terminals that are switched by the slide motion it seems that the switching should be even easier.

If you can work on the people with the proven MicroCoin QL from Australia, I can work on some of the other people with also short height but proven coin mechs as described earlier. I have already been in contact with one particular other short but proven one & they promised to at least make the effort. I am just hoping nothing makes them get cold feet & quit on us. If they get too many calls prematurely it could work against us. I don't want to build up my hopes too much but it sounded like they could be shipping it to me real soon so we can work it over in the back room on a spare machine & really test it & if there are mounting issues they overlooked or could improve on. I would have access to a plasma cutter & a machine shop friend which hopefully we won't need. I am sure we will use a 24 VAC transformer but that could serve possibly all the machines depending on the exact VA power consumption. The wiring for the multi coin mechs if successful would be low voltage like in a coin op car wash which I am familiar with. 24VAC seems important because 12VDC could lose too much voltage possibly depending on your distances.

[anonymous]

MJwalsh- take a step back and re-read this entire thread - you might see some bias and even intimidation to get people to vote yes - Don't you think manufacturer's will see that and ignore what you are trying to do? If you really want to present something of value perhaps you should close this thread and create a new non-biased yes or no poll without trying to lead the outcome of the vote.



Look at it another way, if as a store owner you were handed a petition from your customers with the preamble that prices in your store should be lower and that no one should sign the petition if they did not agree with this then how seriously would you take the petition when all the responses said that prices should be lower.

[DuboisLaundry]

Accepting a dollar coin really has little if any value to the customer, it only helps the owner - so why would customers want it given that the public does not like dollar coins (or $2 bills).

A better option would be a multi coin acceptor that accepted both quarters and a smaller denomination coin - not a larger denomination. Coin store owners are always behind the cost push curve and a hesitant to raise prices due to their inability to do anything but increase by 25 cents. If they had a coindrop that would accept quarter and nickels then they could raise prices in 5 cent increments.

How many Quarters (or Dimes and Nickels if the multicoin drop was available) does it take to start your largest washer? Are you still sure there is no value in a multi-coin drop that takes dollars?

[mjwalsh]

DuboisLaundry Quote "Are you still sure there is no value in a multi-coin drop that takes dollars?"

Of course there is value & with the right type of coin drop the usage of the dollar coin will be optional. Just like if a coin op car wash customer wants to use 8 quarters instead of one dollar he is more than welcome to.

Cleancloths,

Think of the poll as a petition which allows rationale for the other side to be expressed also. We should not take a factory retooling too lightly & expect them to proceed without some healthy input & affirmation. Again, a "Yes" vote simply lets the manufacturers know in a non binding way that we are interested in an affordable way to have more payment options. It is saying we are willing to make room for the capability of multiple payment systems depending on your specific locality. This is a learning process for me too!

I notice my Vertical 8 slides are getting to the point they are non repairable so I can figure about $600 of the cost of the new system should be spent anyway. That kind of offsets the cost which is definitely a factor for a large percentage of us.

[pete f]

I see what I missed here. You want to take quarters, dollars and tokens. So now you need 3 changers. What happens to the tokens price? They will have to be set at .25? If set at $1 then all machines would have to be priced at $1 increments. Set at .25 then you are back to loading 25 coins to start a 60# washer. It gets hard to please everyone. Get dual drops and put in an ATM machine for credit/debit cards to draw money out from.

[mjwalsh]

Pete F,

I checked into ATMs. No bank wants to put them in for free for me much less a backup one & if they did I would be at their mercy of taking them out because of volume issues. If Standard & possibly another 4 Hopper Bill Changer company would allow us to put retrofit kits on our changers the credit card to token would work independently of the non token hoppers. I am thinking that the retrofits would be a lot less money & could be included on all the existing changers in the store which usually is at least 2 changers. One for backup you know. Less cost expecially if one had to pay for the ATMs themselves.

ATMs with its fees would take up wall space whereas a credit card to token retrofit on an existing changer that you need to have anyway in a cash store would not.

The secure token would definitely have to be dollar tokens. The customer would need to have some quarters but very few. Most people carry small amounts of cash. The ones who would be willing to pay the fees at the ATM probably would just put dollar tokens in the single slot multi coin drop which would also activate the washer. In that case we would get the extra amount. In the February journal one very successful operator in Chicago went to dollars only & makes it work....my plan would be a lot less drastic than that. The dollar token issue that you suggest would be a problem would only be for the low key credit card customer option. The use of the credit card to token would also have a 5 dollar minimum to keep the per transaction fees down & allow for hi speed real time checking vs the Set O Matics week later batching. Customers who use credit cards tend to spend more freely so dollar only for them probably won't be as big an issue.

It seems with other new technology payment ways, such as the cell phone way they have in other countries & are testing in New York City, would be more feasible with as few of card swipes system as possible. See the below link www.mastercard.com/us/paypass/mobile/

Paypal also is developing a mobile solution.

[DaveLevenson]

I have owned a coin-only store for about two years. My most-expensive washer is priced at $5.00 (20 quarters!). I offer WDF and accept cash and personal checks over the counter. Customers sometimes ask me if I accept credit cards for WDF service. A few have asked about using credit cards for self-service. So far, the answer is NO for both questions. Have I lost any business because I don't accept plastic? Probably not; nobody else in the area takes it, either. Would I get any additional business if I did accept plastic? I'd like to find out, but...

I have looked at converting from coin to cards. Very expensive, estimated to be as much as $40,000 or about 30% of what I paid for the whole store! I have looked at the Set-O-Matic card-or-coin system. About $20,000 and the on-going cost of the credit card merchant account.

There is a third option: for about $4,000 I can buy an ATM and install it next to my bill changer. No need for a merchant account. A convenience-fee income per transaction, with money wired daily to my bank account. Dispense $10 bills. The customer puts the bills in the bill changer and gets quarters, and the laundry machines don't change. On collection day, I move the quarters from the washers back to the changers. Then I move the bills from the changers back to the ATM. Customer may also get cash and pay for WDF and sodas and snacks with it. The only on-going expense is the telephone line for the ATM, and some ATMs will work over the Internet (already in the store for the video surveillance system) without a phone line.

My landlord was opposed to allowing me to install an ATM, but perhaps he'll reconsider.