Energy efficiency

[Fred]

Which washers/dryers are the most energy efficient? I have heard good things about the Neptune machines. What is the cost savings (in water and electricity) between the Neptune 18# and the Wascomat #18?

I have heard that the quality of hard mount machines is better. Does this mean that the hard mount machines get the clothes cleaner? If it means that the machine will last longer, how long can I expect a soft mount (i.e. the Neptune) to go (without needing major repairs) being run 10 hours a day seven days a week?

Also, does anyone know of any other good quality soft mount machines?

Thank you in advance

[anonymous]

The quality and vendor service are the key in selecting the washer. I think there should be more emphasis on Quality than Energy Efficiency.

Expenses are just that - expense. Revenue is the key. You can have less than average expenses but if customers are unhappy with your choice of equipments, you are not going to have much of revenue to begin with.

Good quality front loader lasts for decades. Wasomat is currently the market leader in Washers with excellent reputation in customer service.

[vohraajay]

I know a loundromat owner who put 2 neptunes in his stores and is very unhappy with the situation. they run for too long and people can't see the water. He's not getting much turns outof them, but they are there as a backup when other machines aren't available. they do save water and therefore are more efficient. But, customers don't have patience to wait alomost 30 minutes for a washer to stop. I'll stick with hard mounts...


ajay

[Lar Hylobates]

Soft mounts suck. This is experience speaking.

[anonymous]

If you are running these machines 10 hours per day, I would think they wouldn't owe you a dime after five years, whatever they are you could scrap them and start over.

[PeterH]

The only way to really make a washer energy efficient is make a hi spin speed extract front loading washer. You still need a wash and 3 rinses to do a good job. The real savings happens if the machine spins well and clothes take less time in the dryer -- but you know where that argument goes...

Domestic washers with a coin slide will not hold up. Commercial softmounts cost 2-3 as much as their slower hardmount brothers. Looks like we're stuck in a rut...

[Fred]

After further consideration, I think that hard mounts are the way to go. I have spoken with a couple of dealers and am faced with the following choices:

1. Purchase new Maytag machines
2. Purchase used (about 3 yr old) Maytag machines
3. Purchase new Wascomat machines
4. Purchase used (about 10 year old) Wascomats.

The Maytag dealer is pushing the MFR machines pretty hard calling them the "Rolls Royces" of washing machines. Does anyone have any experience with these machines?

Also, can anyone give me advice on what route I should take.

Finally, are Wascomat machines more energy efficient?

Thanks

[mike]

Maytags are the Roll-Royce? yeah, overpriced

Wascomats are the Ferrari !

[PeterH]

Depending on the model Wasco you get -- or any hardmount you get for that matter -- you can drop the pre-wash and/or drop a rinse (Dexter washers come with 1 wash, 2 rinses and you can add the pre-wash and 3rd rinse). Some Wasco models have the option for a lower water level in the pre-wash and wash, higher for rinse. If you get used Wasco Gen5's, if you do the low level pre-wash/wash, you will get complaints because it looks like there is NO water in the machine. Their low is REALLY LOW. On the new Gen6's, the low level comes an inch or 2 up the door on low; enough to satisfy the customers. Also the new Gen6's have an extended wash option, so you can drop the pre-wash and put the main wash up to 9 minutes so wash quality doesn't suffer.

Maytag hardmounts are made by Primus in Belguim. You don't see too many Primus stores out there, do you? Let's hear from some Maytag hardmount owners for real opinions...

[Rondo]

I like the Neptunes MAH 20 or 21s. You don't wont the 14s. If you have a drop-off service they are great. They save on supplies, gas, water, and electricity. Run don't walk from the RR Maytag fronts. If you going hardmounts go Wasco or Dexter.

[CharlieS]

I have two stores, one Wasco, one Maytag.

The Maytag machines made by Primus are built in the old style, like a tank. These things are big and heavy. A 35 pound maytag looks like a 50 pound wascomat. I always buy the digital models, not the mechanical. My customers like them, and I charge 4.50 per load, which is a lot for a 35 pounder. I have 2 wasco 75s and 1 125 in the same store. They are a little older and show some wear. My customers use them, but the Maytags are their first choice, even at a higher price.

In my Wasco store, however, which has Gen 5 Emerald series, my customers like them just as well.

There are 2 differences. The Maytags are more expensive. Maytag does not have the vertical integration of their competitors and try to have an upscale product for an upscale price. However, they really don't bring more to the table for the operator. Yes, I do buy them in the Maytag store, just because I like consistency. The three older wascos were there when I bought the store.

The Wasco's are giving service as good as the Maytag fronts. The big difference is in the ease of service. The Wascos are easy to get in and out, all components are easily accessible and easily repaired or replaced. To open the front requires the removal of 2 bolts, a 30 second job, and another 30 seconds to close. The back panel has three screws, another 30 seconds each way.

The Maytag (primus) fronts are a different story. If all you want is access to the drain valve and mounting bolts, you remove 2 screws. The back panel has about 10 bolts, #10 metric, and takes a minute to take off and a little longer to go back. The big pain is the front panel, covering the door lock mechanism and hinges. To remove this, you must first remove the 4 screws holding the soap dish to the top, which are flat not philips so the bit slides around, then open both top locks and open the top. Then you must remove 2 bolts, both of which are near electrics, one of which is halfway up under the control/display panel and must be removed mostly by hand and wrenches, sockets won't fit. Then you must remove the 2 screws from the bottom panel and remove that panel. This reveals 4 bolts holding the bottom of the top panel. Unfortunately, these don't use nut plates, so you have to dig out a #10 wrench, plus your #10 socket, to remove these 4 nuts and bolts. Finally, remove the 4 screws on the left and right of the top panel and finally the cover is off. So thats a total of 10 screws, 6 bolts, and 4 nuts. About 5 minutes to open at best and at least 10 minutes to close. Thats before you actually do any real work.

Did you notice, that just to open the top panel, you always have to first remove the 4 screws from the soap dish.

So, maintenance is a pain, and parts are more expensive then Wasco, which are readily available at a discount and are generally cheaper to begin with. They are more expensive.

They do have a lot more programability than the Gen 5 series, but I don't know about the Gen 6. I think the Gen 6 is pretty similar in programmability.

All things being equal, my next stores will be Wasco. However, I do like the looks of those Continentals with their big doors!

Charlie

[Lindsey]

Charlie, your description of the Primus top with the 4 flat-head screws around the soap dish sounds just like my new Continentals. I haven't looked to see if the bolts inside the front are as you described, but I wonder if they might be the same machine?

[SudsMan]

Wasco Gen 4 require you to remove two screws from the soap box in order to remove the top. But I love them anyway.

[Jim F.]

The large Maytag hardmounts are no longer made by Primus, in Belgium. They are made in the Czech Republic. The new hardmounts are different than the ones Maytag had a year or so ago. The old Primus machines had a lot of problems, which the new ones do not. If I hadn't have started buying machines already from a different manufacturer, I would buy these new Maytags.

[anonymous]

Jim That's very encouraging info on the Maytag! I just got a deal on some used stuff, and included was a 35lb Maytag, with a Czech sticker on the back. I can't tell by the SN, but was told it is about 18 months old. Very impressive looking box! That will be showcased in the front of the store, as I move a Milnor off to the side.

[CharlieS]

My comments on the Maytag referred to the current model. I was not aware that it was made in the Czech Republic. All three of my 35 pounders are identical, with most recent purchased last month.

Charlie

[Jim F.]

Charlie,

I mis-spoke a little. The new Maytags are made by Primus in the Czech Republic. The old ones were made by Unimac. It is Wascomat that is made in Belgium.

As far as bolts and screws are concerned, I don't see what's the big deal. Every machine has two - four screws to remove the soap trap, before opening the top. My Dexters have four. As far as the back panel goes, most things are not accessible from the back anyways. I looked in a manual and it says Wascomat has six screws/bolts to remove the front top panel from a Gen 5, vs. a Maytag at eight. If the 35'lb ers are new, you shouldn't be needing to take front panels off for a long time. In fact if your looking for longevity in a machine, the Maytag has a much better track record. My distributor services all makes and they have done 50% more bearing jobs on Wascomats than on anything made by Maytag. I know this is an old arguments on this board, but just my opinion.

[Rondo]

Jim, Wasco Gen 5 or 6 has no screws to open the tops. I have both . I also have Maytag (unimac) 35s and can tell you from personal experence that you just can put new bearings in them. The shafts where the bearings ride a very soft and without a expensive shaft saver kit your wasting your time installing bearings. Your distributor surely is a Maytag man and is not truthful about Wascos. I have one in my area that says the same thing., I think it's a washer envy thing. As a matter of fact I don't think they know how to rebuild a Wasco.

[Jim F.]

Rondo,

Actually my Dist. was a Wasco/Maytag Dist. for over 25 years. In fact they built themselves by selling Wascomat. They dropped Wascomat when they came out with the Generation 5 machines, due to manufacturing defects, service calls and other issues. I don't see what your point is about the shafts, of course with any bearing job on any machine, you should always replace the shafts as well. I also know this from experience. In fact all of the bearing jobs that I've done have been on Wascomats.

In my opinion I think Wascomat is a cheap, inferior product, that is not up to the demands of laundromat life today. I eagerly await your response. ;)

[Anonymous]

Jim, for sure you jest. Wascos are as good or better than any machine out there. When I bought my store there were some wascos that were 33 years old and still running strong. I have some Gen4s that are about 15 years old and running well. I have mostly new gen5s that run great, and two gen5s that are 10 years old that work great.

[Jim F.]

Kirby,

Yeah I was a little. I dangled a hook to see who would bite first. :) You were the first - congratulations. Actually that was true about my distributor. When I bought both of my stores they had 20 + year old Wascomats in them. All Gen 4 of course. Nothing made will ever compare to them, I don't care how much people like the Gen 5 or 6. Like I said this is an old argument. Wascomat is ok, there are a lot of worse stuff out there. I mean A LOT.

[Rondo]

Jim, since most shafts are welded to the baskets why add 1000s of dollars to a rebuild? Are you saying the Maytag/Primus is better that a Wasco? I had 14 Maytag/Unimacs, now I have 2 all replaced with Wascos, most didn't make it 5 or 6 years without a rebuild. Since your distributor doesn't sell Wascos anymore I guess you'll never find out the difference. BTW How's the tech support on the Maytags? how about the part prices?

There's a distributor in my area that quit selling Wascos and started selling Dexters and put down the Wascos the same way at a sales siminar. They said that the Gen 5 door system had to be replaced on all of the units they sold. I have 7 Gen 5s that are 8 years old and I haven't had a single problem.

I've been in the business for 11 years and I know what machines I'll be buying and they won't start with a M.

[Jim F.]

YES, the Maytag/Primus is much better than the Wascomat by a long shot. When I said the Dist. did 50% more rebuilds it was Wascomat Gen 5 vs. the Maytag/Unimac machines. The Unimac version was known for bearing problems and even with this they still did more rebuilds on the Wascomat. I've visited over a hundred different laundromats in the last several years alone. All had Wascomat Gen 4 washers in them. I can only think of one that replaced them with the Gen 5. The rest all went with Maytag or Dexter. What does that tell you, hmmm? I just bought a Maytag/Primus 80 lber and this thing is built much better than anything Wascomat can ever dream of.

I've done rebuilds on the Gen 4 machines and they are not that hard to do. Didn't have a problem at all with the shaft.

Since you couldn't spell the word all the way I'll help you out, its.....MAYTAG baby!

[Rondo]

Jim, how about the parts prices and tech support?

[Anonymous]

Jim, I have a friend that had a maytag store, sold it, and now has a store with all Gen5 Wascos. He claims the wascos are far superior.

As far as rebuilds, the Gen5 is so much easier to work on than the Gen4. The timer and all electronics is modular, you don't have to deal with a million loose wires. The water activated drain is so much better than a motor and gear.

There were a lot of distributors that were fearful of the Gen5 design when it first came out, just like their were motor heads that bad mouthed the unibody construction of cars when they started eliminating full frames on cars. Sure they may no longer last 50 years, but who wants a car that old. I don't really care if the Gen5 machines only last 20 years, by that time you should be replacing them anyway.

[Jim F.]

Rondo,

Don't know. Haven't needed any. Don't plan on it for many years. If I do I will go through my dependable Maytag distributor. They service and sell parts for Wascomat too. Do you want their number?

[Jim F.]

Kirby,

I know everyone has their opinion. If you ask 10 laundromat owners who has the best washer, you know you'll get 12 different answers. Wascomat is a good machine, just not my choice. It is certainly better than say Speed Queen. Damn - I set off another fire didn't I?

[CharlieS]

Well, I've got both, a Maytag store and a Wascomat Store. Anyone who has read my posts know that I find the Wascos easier to work on. My track record has also been better on the wascos. In fact, this past year, in my Wasco store I replaced 3 drive belts (4 years old), one temperature sensor, and uhh, hmm, nothing else that I can think of, wait, I cleared several bra wires from drain valves, and a couple of coin jams.

I had a door relay failure on a Maytag 25, a door hinge freeze up on a Maytag 35, several coin jams, a pump on a Neptune, and at least a dozen Neptune door/drum seals. My tops needed all new injector inserts, and one had a bad lid switch. I'm not counting the fact that Maytag had to come down and fix both of the 35s I installed last year, just to get them running the first time.

So, I pay more upfront, I pay more for parts, and tech support is clearly inferior and less available. But, hey, it says Maytag, so I should be happy for the privilege of owning them.

Don't get me wrong. I do like Maytags. The tops are easy to work on, as are the small stack dryers. I just bought 12 of the Maytag stacks made by ADC and am installing them next week.

However, lets look at the facts. Wasco, Dexter, IPSO, Continental are all vertically integrated companies that make all of their own equipment. Maytag is essentially a marketing company that has equipment built by other manufacturers, modified to its specs. It is not a vertically integrated company and cannot match the cost structure of its competitors. You will pay more for similar product. Since they also choose to create a product with an upper end image, you pay a lot more.

However, when it comes to toploaders, which they do make, their machines beat the others hands down for reliability and ease of repair. I wish they would make their own washers rather than get them from an OEM.

My 2 cents worth.

Charlie

[Jim F.]

Charlie,

You should check your facts before talking. Continental makes their own washers, dryers are made by Dexter. Ipso makes their own washers, dryers made by Cissell. They just bought or merged with Cissell. Wasco has their dryers made by a European company to their specs. The Wasco dryers come with some hokey emergency stop buttom on the front that confuses the customers. I guess that makes Dexter the only vertically integrated company out there.

Maytag on the other hand has their dryers made by ADC to their specs, which are higher than the ADC dryer specs. If you check the statistics, ADC makes more dryers for Maytag than for themselves. All of the Maytag equipment has the Maytag computer board which is far superior to anything out there.

I have two stores, both almost all new Dexter and Maytags. I've had few if any problems on any of my Dexters. Of my Maytags I only have had a couple minor Neptune problems and all covered under warranty. You talk of tech support. Your tech support should be coming from your distributor. Maybe you should look somewhere else for that.

You started out this by saying Wascomat was better because of the number on panel screws. Of which you counted wrong on. I don't think that is the most accurate way to judge a product.