What's the biggest reason NOT to convert your Mat to Card?

[SLM72]

Not going to try and hide myself, I'm one of the principles with Card Concepts Inc. many of you know us as CCI (A proud Advertiser on Coinwash.com!)

What many of you may not know is that we develop products based on what customers want. Many of the great features in our system were ideas directly from our existing user base. I figured that this is a great place to get more opinions and ask you what technology would make your Laundromat easier to operate and more profitable? I think the first step is to find out why more people are not converting their existing coin stores to card.

[Kitty]

KUDUS TO YOU CCI

Thanks for being an active pariticpant of our bulletin board!

[Bob]

I opened a new store about 1 1/2 years ago and decided not to put a card system in due mostly to cost. Another factor in my decision to go with coin only is the fact that I run an unattended store and I saw some difficulties with that.

Bob

[SLM72]

Another factor in my decision to go with coin only is the fact that I run an unattended store and I saw some difficulties with that.

Thanks for the honest feedback Bob, It's interesting that you felt that a card system would be a hindrance on your unattended store? Many of our clients actually purchased our system because they felt it enhanced the concepts of "Unattended" - "Remote Management". Question for you... Did anyone ever calculate an ROI for you, using penny incremental pricing? Often customers who see the tremendous profit advantages going card find it hard to turn away. Thanks again for your feedback!!

[Kitty]

With the huge increase in gas costs I see card stores having the advantage today to recover costs at a rate equal or better to the increase the utility companies are passing while coin stores must suffer to recover in increments of .25 cents. Not to mention the accounting aspect of the systems.


Curious to hear, SLM what is the profit advantage in the card system according to your last statement?

[SLM72]

I’m glad you asked Kitty! Here’s an example of the profit opportunities I spoke of…

In the August 2005 issue of the Journal (Coin Laundry Journal) there is a laundry profile of a store in Chicago (Page 10). Towards the end of the profile there is a list of equipment and vend prices. I calculated that if this store was slow (running 10% of maximum capacity) that its monthly income is about $46,000. If you take that same mix of equipment and add $.06 to the vend price of each of the machines, that same store would raise its monthly income by over $2,800 per month! That’s an extra $34,000 in profit a year! Remember, we did not add any customers to his business just applied a very small vend price increase. Also since card systems develop ‘Float’ it’s a conservative estimate that this store would accumulate over $11,000 a year in float! Now we have increased the gross cash flow of this store by over $45,000 a year!

Now this example is of a fairly large store, but the math works for any size laundry! What would a 6 penny increase in your vend prices do to your monthly income? Do you think that your customers would complain of a $.06 increase? If anyone wants help in calculating the impact a small vend increase on their store would be let me know!

[Coinwash]

Here’s an example of the profit opportunities I spoke of…

In the August 2005 issue of the Journal (Coin Laundry Journal) there is a laundry profile of a store in Chicago (Page 10). Towards the end of the profile there is a list of equipment and vend prices.

Hi Jonathan here;
Thanks for being an active participant of our bulletin board too!

If you would please send us some of these profiles or new ones and we will post them on our Editorial Page.

Thank you once again

[Kitty]

Now, I don't like to sell the idea of "float" The accounting aspect of that money technically should never be thought of as the owners capital therefore you couldn't sell me on "float". I understand you are selling it as cash flow, but in actuallity that money should not be spent.

But, the real value of the card system is when you can pass expense increases back to the consumer so not to reduce your own profit margin while keeping customers happy WOOO HOO...who wouldn't be happy with that?

I'd say 2006 is going to be a good year for card systems

[SLM72]

I agree with you that 'Float' is a touchy subject as far how it should be treated. But also remember that the 'Float' does not stop at the end of the first year, in fact it continues for as long as you keep the card system in place. I can't speculate on how much of the float never returns due to lost cards or customers who move away but my experience thus far has been that the percentage of 'Retained Float' is tremendous!

Thanks for your dialog and comments.

[DuboisLaundry]

I have a large transient customer base. people just passing through.
I don't want to be refunding unused card balances at all hours

[David]

I would actually LIKE to go card, but for me, it's just capital outlay. 30-40K for a store upgrade is just too steep. The ROI would never make the payments for the upgrade. (In my store)

Now, if I was building a new store, then I'd go card all the way.

[SLM72]

I have a large transient customer base. people just passing through.
I don't want to be refunding unused card balances at all hours
I would certainly agree with you that in some vacation areas or other areas where your customer base is not resident, a card system may pose a challenge. It's still hard to dispute the large financial gains a Card system would offer!

Chuck, What if you could install a machine that would allow customers to insert their cards when they were finished and it would keep their card and dispense the balance in a hopper like a coin changer? This way you could take advantage of the system and let the system refund the cards for you automatically?

Just a thought.

[Maywood2]

Does such a system already exist?

It seems to me (from my brief research) that they haven't made a one-stop-shopping machine... by that I mean it seems like you have to have a card dispenser for the new customers, then a value-adder machine for the returning customers, and a bill-to-bill changer in case they don't have the exact amount they want to add to the card.

Wouldn't a single machine that accepts their money, returns cash if they request change, dispenses new cards and adds value to existing cards, (and the option to refund surrendered cards too, maybe within certain dollar limits) be the way to go?

(Again, not sure that someone doesn't already make this magic machine, but if they do, I'd like to hear about it...)

Also, realize that having to keep a bill-to-bill changer stocked with cash reduces "float", while your card machine has incoming cash that could be used to make change.

Thanks!
John

[SLM72]

I would actually LIKE to go card, but for me, it's just capital outlay. 30-40K for a store upgrade is just too steep. The ROI would never make the payments for the upgrade. (In my store)
David,
You would be surprised that in most stores that a small vend increase would not only make your payment but leave you with hundreds or even thousands each month. Here's another example with a small store...

19 Washers & 10 Stack dryers: Good income for a store this size is about $2,500 a week (15% of maximum capacity, 17 hours a day, typical Chicago Vend Prices).

Card system required for a store this size could easily be financed over 5 years, with a cash down payment of about $1,800 and a monthly payment of about $880. Increasing the vend prices on all the machines in the store by $.09 would result in a monthly increase of over $1,200 a month. That puts an extra $320 a month in your pocket every month which is $3,800 a year after you have made your payment! Once you pay off your note you will then realize a net profit increase of almost $15,000 a year!

The cash ROI is less then 4 months!

You can also expect to see an additional $2,800 a year in float!

[SLM72]

Does such a system already exist?

Our X-Changers do Dispense cards, Check Value on cards, and can add value to existing cards, all in the same kiosk. Bill to Bill changers are available from a number of vendors (we do not make one). The idea of a "Refund Machine" was just a concept idea in response to a post from Chuck. As I mentioned originally I'm interested in why more store owners are not converting their existing coin stores to card.

If I was made to believe that building a "Refund Machine" would get more Laundromats to convert, then you can bet I would build one!

You are also correct that the cash in the Bill to Bill or "Refund Machine" would take away from your float, but those amounts are static. You will decide that $1,000 is the amount you will leave in the Bill to Bill and you may decide that the "Refund Machine" will hold $500. Float is perpetual and continues to grow, it will not take long for the float to out weigh the cash in these other machines.

Thanks for all your comments!

[Fred50]

I am a user of the CCI System and I can't imagine using anything else, especially coins. Sorry folks with coin stores, but there are so many positives to card systems.

Excuse me if some of this is repetitive but here goes my list of pluses:

- The float is a very real add to your bottom line over time and it never goes away. I won't share exact figures, but let's just say that it didn't take long for the system for pay for itself with float as a major aspect of it.

- Given the recent rise in nat gas prices and the future outlook for more of the same, a card system is a huge plus. You can add pennies to washer and dryer pricing without a customer backlash. My customers only care about the # of minutes on the dryers. They are not particularly concerned if they are paying more than 25 cents. A few cents more on a washer matters little to a customer, but it can certainly make up for any increase in energy costs.

-Think about a customer having to go into their pocket for an extra quarter and then think about our credit card society and their reaction to swiping a card. The reason merchants are willing to pay a few % to Visa/Mcard or Amex is because customers spend more when they use a credit card - it doesn't feel like spending real money. This doesn't mean that they will do more laundry than they have, but it means that the price of doing laundry and any subsequent increase in price with either not be noticeable or will be less painful.

- Collecting takes about 2 minutes, if you go slowly. No one, employees or customers, will ever know your collecting schedule. Compare that to a coin store. What is your time and personal safety worth?

- Customer loyalty! Once someone has $$ on a card, they are less likely to go somewhere else. They feel attached to the place.

- Marketing! - You can collect and store customer data and use it in many creative ways. Not to give too much away, but you can market any way you can think of with a complete customer database. In addition, you can give out cards with discount % or value at any time. This works very well especially during a grand opening or after a remodel.

- Information is power and there is a vast amount of info that the system provides. It is up to the individual to take advantage of it. You do not need to be particularly computer literate to use it either. For example, I can dial in from anywhere and see if a machine is out of order and why. I know how busy my store is for real, as opposed to a subjective attendant's view.

- I know how much my attendants are spending on WDF, when they clock in and out, and how often they go to the bathroom (I don't really want to know this, but it gives you an idea of the vast amount of info available).

- I can transfer a balance from a lost card to a new card remotely. Talk about building customer loyalty...

- I can go on and on and on, but you get the idea.

Note that I have a mixed customer base of white, Hispanic, and Black and no one has had a problem learning how to use the system. Initially, we went out of our way to teach people how to use the system, but it was basically overkill. Now customers teach other customers or ask when they need help, which is rare.

The system has a touch screen which includes video of what to put where. We rarely have any issues with the system. Feel free to ask any questions that you may have.

The most important thing with any card system is that the owner is comfortable with the functionality and that he/she teaches the attendants the proper procedures. It is pretty straightforward from there. Don't forget that whatever system you buy, make sure that it comes with a backup for peace of mind. CCI's comes with a backup standard.

The last thing that I want to talk about is ROI.

If you told me that I needed to spend an extra $40K or so on something for my store with no $$ return, then I would tell you where to go.

However, if you want to think like an investor/banker than you need to determine your Return On your Investment (ROI). A system that costs $40k and will last many, many years should still pay for itself in less than 5 years in my humble opinion.

OK, so what you need to determine in very simple terms is if you will "make" an additional $8,000 per year for the next 5 years. That's about $150 a week. A simple 20% ROI or annual return.

Add up the 6-9 cents as a very conservative estimate of how much you will earn on each additional turn of your washers and dryers (Don't forget that dryers get about 4 times as many turns as washers!). You can certainly add more if you plan to increase prices more than that. Note that this assumes that this is your total price increase for 5 years. You will obviously increase prices more than that over 5 years.

Add to that about $1.00 (also very conservative) that each unique customer will leave in float. Note that most customers have multiple cards or lose them and you will have turnover if you are in a typical urban area due to the change in population.

How much is customer retention worth? This # is difficult to determine, but probably much larger than you think. The card loyalty and customized marketing possibilities are HUGE!

What is your personal safety worth?

How about the limits to vandalism because no coins are kept in the individual machines?

If you are building a new store, this is definitely a no-brainer decision. However, I agree with the previous post about unattended stores in resort areas.

If you are remodeling, it may be a tougher decision if you are keeping your existing coin changers. However, I think that if you run through the calculations above it still can work.

Note that in a competitive marketplace, a card system can be the thing that helps to differentiate your store from others. People are getting more used to card-based systems in this country. Folks from Latin/South America and most European countries already use cards for many of their daily transactions.

In major cities in the US, most transit systems now use card systems.

Think about an 80 lb washer that is pushing $8.00 in some areas as an example. How long are people going to be comfortable putting 32 quarters into a washing machine as opposed to 1 swipe of a card. Customers catch on to the simplicity of this concept very quickly and I think that they are willing to pay for this convenience.

Enough rambling. You can tell that I am an advocate of card systems in most cases. I am a very happy CCI user and I have seen card systems work well in many environments. I don't think that you have to make a leap of faith anymore as many people have had very positive experiences with these systems.

[Kitty]

SLM THanks so much for intiating this thread. I hope you will keep it going for a few days in hopes other members will continue to add their thoughts to the dialog. This thread has been interesting thus far.


I hope you will mention the value of this bulletin board to other manufacturers and distributors during the course of your business days.

Kitty

[mike]

What I am waiting for is a system that cuts out the middleman.

I am waiting for an acceptor on each washer and dryer that takes a debit or credit card.

I know they are expensive, but $40,000. for a card store is expensive too.

I think this type of system would kill both card stores and coin stores, one day it will come. (I hope)

[DuboisLaundry]

I voted "Other" and a "refund machine" would eliminate my number 1 reason for not going card

my number 2 reason is the cost of the system overall. I would want one to also activate my carwash, vaccum, and coin showers. aw heck why not vending machines too!

[SLM72]

What I am waiting for is a system that cuts out the middleman.
Interesting? What do you mean by this? Who is the middle man?

Also, when you say "I am waiting for an acceptor on each washer and dryer that takes a debit or credit card." Do you propose that cash sales be prohibited?

Putting a credit card reader on every machine is certainly possible, unfortunately the way that credit card processors charge merchants per transaction would hurt your profit margin since each machine is a relatively low charge amount.

We do offer credit/debit card transfers on our X-Changer now (September Actually) which allow the customer to transfer a larger amount at once reducing the number of CC transaction charges.

I'm interested in your reply!

[SLM72]

my number 2 reason is the cost of the system overall. I would want one to also activate my carwash, vaccum, and coin showers. aw heck why not vending machines too!
Thanks for the post Chuck, I'll put your vote in for a "Refund Machine"

In response to your comment about the cost of the system overall, do the ROI statements I've made seem reasonable? It seems to me that when you put it into perspective the card system 'Costs' nothing! And on top of the Free card system you make more money!

I'm curious if I'm missing something, if by putting a card system in will put more money in your pocket each month then when you were coins only, How is the cost too high?

And now the Million Dollar Question??

How much (or little) would a card system have to cost for it to loose this perception that they are too expensive?

[Fred50]

I voted "Other" and a "refund machine" would eliminate my number 1 reason for not going card

my number 2 reason is the cost of the system overall. I would want one to also activate my carwash, vaccum, and coin showers. aw heck why not vending machines too!

Chuck,

My CCI System is used to access my bathroom, and for all my vending - soap, soda, and snack. There are CCI users that use the system for pool tables, coffee machines, TV channel selection, video games and air hockey. I think someone is also using it for after hours access to their mat when they run unattended.

The possibilities are endless.

To further SLM72's point about the cost:

If I told you that you could buy a washing machine for $40K that would pay for itself in less than 5 years (probably much less) and that it would last for several years after that, would you be interested?

I am surprised that mat owners don't look at a card system as they would any other investment, small or large. If it pays for itself in short order and adds value to your business and saves you time, why wouldn't you do it?

What am I missing?
Do people not believe that card systems return enough on your $$ investment?
Are they concerned about an automated system?
Are they concerned about customer acceptance?

Card systems have been in existence in other businesses for decades. Building door access systems, credit card terminals, and frequent buyer cards to name a few in magstripe form have been around for a while. They have proven their reliability over and over again. Every major casino is now using magstripe card systems for their slot machines - they take their cash very seriously!

The networking technology that is used is very basic. The PCs are made by DELL, the bill acceptors are made by MARS. Nothing with these systems are particularly complex (sorry CCI). The operating system is Windows XP Pro. You get the idea.

Between CCI, EDS, and EasyCard, they must have over 1,000 installations in laundromats alone and after the latest surge in energy prices these #'s should skyrocket.

I would like someone to make a valid argument against these systems based upon ROI, not just cost.

Something I realized that I forgot in my last post. For coin store owners, how much $$ do you now have tied up in coins between your changers and your coin boxes? That becomes yours again instantly. Oh yeah, you now have to join a gym because you won't be getting pumped up carrying buckets of quarters around.

[DaveLevenson]

I find the card systems very appealing...but:

My store has a dozen Maytag tops with coin slides. These slides mechanically start the timer by physically pushing it off the stop position. Can these machines be retrofitted with card equipment? (Or even with coin drops?) My soap vendors also use coin slides, and are entirely mechanical. My dryers have Greenwald timers. You get the general idea. (Yes, I also have a dozen front-loaders with Set-O-Matic drops; we're not entirely ancient!) My soda machine accepts coin and currency, but I don't own it. Will Pepsi allow me to retrofit their machine with a card system? How about my payphone? If the changers go away, and some coin-operated equipment remains, customers are inconvenienced.

The cost to retrofit a store like this might be considerably more than the cost of the card system, itself. Does CCI (or anybody) offer a retrofit for this sort of equipment?

Just curious!

[Fred50]

Dave,

Someone from CCI would have to answer most of your questions, but if you are attended you can keep a small change drawer for the phone, soda machine, etc.

I doubt that Pepsi would allow you to add a card reader to their machine, but you never know. Does the soda machine accept bills? This would alleviate the need for most of the coin change.

Have you thought about buying your own soda machine? If you do a decent volume, it may be worth owning your own machine anyway.

[SLM72]

Mark,

Your check is in the mail!

Thanks for all the great insight; I'm sure it comes across better from you (a store owner) rather then from me. Although my family has been in the coin/card laundry business for over 30 years I think when storeowners hear me preach what you have said that they think I'm being bias.

My main purpose for starting this thread was to get peoples reasons why they have NOT converted their stores. It appears that this topic is still pretty hot but after only being up for about 10 hours now it appears that the majority (over 80% of who voted) believe that card systems are too expensive.

I'm looking forward to more responses!

[SLM72]

Does CCI (or anybody) offer a retrofit for this sort of equipment?

Just curious!
Dave,

You bring up a lot of good points regarding older stores with older style equipment. There is no doubt that there are allot of challenges to get a store with the equipment you listed to work with a card system. But there are very few machines that are impossible to retrofit!

It will cost a little bit more to retrofit some of the equipment because in some cases electronic timers would have to be purchases but that does not make the system unattainable. We would have to look at your stores current performance to see if it warrants exploring, a profit analysis would have to be created to help you decide if its the right thing for you.

As far as vending machines are concerned I often agree that sometimes its not a bad idea to keep some vending off of the cards. There is in many cases allot of walk in (impulse) vending business that would be turned away if the only way to buy a soda or bag of chips was with a card. You could easily simplify your operation by converting your operation but leaving your vending on coin.

Thanks for the post!

[Fred50]

SLM72,

No check necessary. Your service is great and your company is very responsive to the desires of your user base. Keep up the great work. CCI has included many of their customer suggestions in new releases of the software. They are a rare breed.

I think that the cost obstacle has a lot to do with the unfamiliarity with the workings of the system itself and its features. It is not a coin changer/ slide replacement as such. If you look at it as that, then you are missing the whole point.

If I was told that my store with coin drops, coin boxes and changers could be converted to XYZ at a cost of $40K with no apparent benefits, then I could see why others would balk.

It frustrates me when I discuss card systems with other owners and I get the "it's just too much $$$" reaction. I think that we all have to see the forest through the trees.

Let me try another relevant example. Considering the price of nat gas these days, I bet lots of folks who have older boilers, dryers and other equipment are thinking about replacement.

If I told you that these items could be replaced for $40K and that they would pay for themselves in less than 5 years, and it would enhance the image of your store, and make your life easier, and help you retain customers would you still question the cost?

Let's all admit it, we hate to spend $$ especially when we get into large $$ amounts. However, if we never upgraded our stores we would invite competition, piss off our customers, and we would have a difficult time raising vend prices. Look at a card system as just another enhancement.

Do you all still feel that the cost is too high? If so, can somebody please explain it to me in financial, not general terms?

[pete f]

I have had a long day but had a chance to glance over some of this. I voted my store is to small. I also will say my new store I just opened is a card store, but not mag. The reason being the store is to small for the outlay of a mag system. I put my system in for 40k less than I was quoted for a CCI system. Considering a 1650 Sq ft store, and no, I don't do 35,000 a month. So my store was to small for most card systems, but there are some alternatives for smaller stores out there. I am happy I did the new store in card. As for converting my other stores, it is hard to get excited about, even using the much cheaper system I have now, though I am considering it for one more store.. the outlay is steep, and that store has no troubles with coin. The security of card was the main reason I went that way in my newest store. I am leaning to wards Set O matic's credit card swipe for a couple stores to add credit card capability. One store is VERY transit with vacationers', so it is a natural fit. What do you think about that? In my area many stores are 50-80k a year gross. Is converting to a 50k mag card system worth it??
I think this thread is interesting, you have many great points. I am not sure the average store does the volumes needed to place a mag system in, that could be another factor in your poll. (read cost)

[SLM72]

One store is VERY transit with vacationers', so it is a natural fit. What do you think about that? In my area many stores are 50-80k a year gross. Is converting to a 50k mag card system worth it??
I think this thread is interesting, you have many great points. I am not sure the average store does the volumes needed to place a mag system in, that could be another factor in your poll. (read cost)
Pete,

Thanks for the reply. As I mentioned in a previous post there are locations like vacation areas and stores with a high percentage of transient business where a typical card system may not be the best option, I agree with you there, the financial gains that can be achieved by using a card system (even in these location) is still relevant, there are just different issues that need to be addressed.

If our system was 40K more then what you paid for your system I'm a bit surprised. I have never hidden from the fact that our products are on the high end of the price scale, but we are also on the high end of quality, features, technology, service, and automation (ask any one of our customers). I'm not trying to imply that you made a mistake to use a competitive product (although it breaks my heart!) I'm more interested in who quoted you on my system? Send me a private message if you do not want to post it here.

Lastly, I applaud you for putting in a card system (even if it's not mine) in your new store. Now another question for you, If you could have purchased a CCI system for the same or close to what you paid for your smart card system would you have chosen CCI?

[Monarch]

You might think that being a manufacturer of coin mechanisms -without a card system to sell, I would be dead set against cards, but it is quite the contrary. I see the future being more and more card systems in place. But, I also see that there will continue to be coin acceptors in use in many places, not so much from cost as from convenience. Units in apartment building are not likely to go card, and those with many transient customers are less likely to go card. But like many emerging technologies there are those who are slow to accept for the wrong reasons.

Remember when fax machines cost thousands of dollars? and few people could justify them? Now what would you think of a business without one? Same with computers. Or a home without a microwave oven? Things change, and this is one that is coming, like it or not.

I hope no one takes offense at this, it is just an observation, but as a general rule there is no one tighter than a laundry operator. There is some justification for this, those quarters are hard to come by. But there are so very very many that do not see the wisdom of the old saw "you get what you pay for" Any business, laundry, manufacturing, distribution, whatever, must be prepared to invest in new technology to remain competitive. I do not encourage just jumping into any changes for the sake of change, but rational investigation, and careful evaluation should of new things needs to be applied. I encourage all of you to keep an open mind, and look at things beyond the immediate cost. The arguments above, both pro's and con's present excellent material to consider. But the most important thing is to consider if you are keeping up with what is happening in business.

JMHO

[RAM]

My reason for not to convert coin store to card system is

1,smart card too expensive to buy
2,mag stripe card system with networked is very unreliable
3,cost to convert is not $40k but more like $60k plus

there is no such thing that system will pay back it self by increment by Pennies,customer do notice price increase by or quarter,if they have choice to go other store they will because price increase by 6 cents.
if you have coin store and no competition you can increase price by quarter and no one goes any were,
most of store in my area are card system and they compete with each other on reducing price by Pennie,nickle and dime, NOT INCREASING.
Tuesday,Wednesday and Thursday ALL WASHER HALF PRICE SALE because they have card system,card system store create price war


most new store(NEW COMPETITION)are build with card system and they compete with coin store and card store.

[pete f]

Pete,

Thanks for the reply. As I mentioned in a previous post there are locations like vacation areas and stores with a high percentage of transient business where a typical card system may not be the best option, I agree with you there, the financial gains that can be achieved by using a card system (even in these location) is still relevant, there are just different issues that need to be addressed.

If our system was 40K more then what you paid for your system I'm a bit surprised. I have never hidden from the fact that our products are on the high end of the price scale, but we are also on the high end of quality, features, technology, service, and automation (ask any one of our customers). I'm not trying to imply that you made a mistake to use a competitive product (although it breaks my heart!) I'm more interested in who quoted you on my system? Send me a private message if you do not want to post it here.

Lastly, I applaud you for putting in a card system (even if it's not mine) in your new store. Now another question for you, If you could have purchased a CCI system for the same or close to what you paid for your smart card system would you have chosen CCI?
Sure. I'l bite.
lets say I have 26 washers,, say 1 55#, 2 40's. 2 25's, 2 18's, all dexter, and maybe 1 SQ super 20, 4 Maytag neptunes, 1 maytag MFR35, and 7 Maytag PD tops. 7 Dex stacks and 5 SQsingles
This is not the store I was quoted for, but another I would consider for cards, though it is a pleasure to visit type store. Is it even worth to consider mag cards ?? the store does 70k gross.

[SLM72]

Sure. I'l bite.
lets say I have 26 washers,, say 1 55#, 2 40's. 2 25's, 2 18's, all dexter, and maybe 1 SQ super 20, 4 Maytag neptunes, 1 maytag MFR35, and 7 Maytag PD tops. 7 Dex stacks and 5 SQsingles
This is not the store I was quoted for, but another I would consider for cards, though it is a pleasure to visit type store. Is it even worth to consider mag cards ?? the store does 70k gross.
Pete,

Can you share your vend prices and hours of operation? I'd be happy to crunch the numbers and let you know what I come up with. Can't promise that it will work but it does not hurt to run the numbers and let you decide?

The other reason for me starting this post is to get a feel for what it will take to get more retrofit business. There is no question that 90% of my business is new stores over 2,500 sq/ft but I also realize that there are allot more existing stores (big and small) that run on coin that could benefit from a card system. If by the time I've gathered enough feed back that the majority of existing store owners want a lower cost system then it would be foolish for me to not develop a product that met their needs. There are a lot of things we put into our system that make it expensive, we believe that it also makes it superior. There is no reason why we could not develop something that met the retrofit markets needs? I just need to know what it is that they need!

Thanks for the post!

[Fred50]

SLM72,

Have you thought about removing some of the multiple components, but keeping the data and functional redundancy to reduce the cost for smaller operations?

For example, you could have one XChanger as opposed to two which would eliminate a vault and monitor. However, you could have 2 cpu's in one cabinet and possibly 2 bill acceptors. Just a thought.

I don't where the bulk of the cost in the system is from your end, but I figured it was worth a shot.

Is there a trimmed down version of the software that you could provide? Maybe you could eliminate some of the functions that a smaller store may not need or want. For example, an unattended store certainly does not need a built in time clock.

I know that service is very important to your company, so I assume that you do not want to offer a limited service to retrofits or smaller stores, but maybe you could offer a streamlined package of features.

Have you thought about a self-contained do-it-yourself version?

[Laundry_king]

OK this has been a get thread. Now my question is, we all know how fast computers get out dated?

You buy one on the first of the month and at the end of the month it already out dated by something new?

There is always something new coming how do you no your not buying old technology?

How upgradeable is this product and can you trade your unit in for and up grade?
A coin is a coin you have slide or drop. I like the whole idea about cards I just don't want to get stuck with it 5 to 10 years down the road and spend another $40,000 to $60,000?

[Fred50]

OK this has been a get thread. Now my question is, we all know how fast computers get out dated?

You buy one on the first of the month and at the end of the month it already out dated by something new?

There is always something new coming how do you no your not buying old technology?

How upgradeable is this product and can you trade your unit in for and up grade?
A coin is a coin you have slide or drop. I like the whole idea about cards I just don't want to get stuck with it 5 to 10 years down the road and spend another $40,000 to $60,000?

What do you mean by outdated? When you talk about any consumer electronics, the manufacturers are constantly added new features. Next month's model will have something that last month's did not have.

Is that your point?

If you are talking about usefulness then that is an entirely different topic. The 10 year-old TV or 5 year-old PC in my house still perform the tasks that I need them to on a daily basis without issue. Does that mean that they are useless? No, of course not.

Keep in mind that the things that we are referring to do not last forever, nothing does. So, if your point is that at some point you will have to replace components of your card system, coin changers, or coin drops/slides then you are correct.

I have had my system for 3 years and have yet to replace (or need to replace a major component). I would like to change to a flat screen monitor at some point as opposed to my current CRTs, but that's just me. It is neither necessary or required.

I think that the same parallel can be drawn for coin stores over the years with the change from mostly slides to mostly drops, but I'll leave that part of the dialogue to someone who knows more about the history and future developments in that market than I do.

In addition, your washers and dryers will need to replaced or have components replaced over time for cosmetic and or basic mechanical reasons. I don't see the difference. I also don't believe that I will ever spend close to the initial cost of the card system even if I do have to replace major components in the next 20 or so years. Why? I assume that a good portion of the cost of the initial system went to wiring my machines, installing card readers, and installing the vaults. This is a one-time cost as is the shipping and acquisition of the vaults themselves, which I assume is not insignificant.

In summary, unless you are in a business where you need the latest hardware and software, your card system should last as long as the rest of your equipment. You don't need the fastest processing speed or the fastest hard drive read/write time, or anything else that DELL or others may be marketing to consumers this month for a card system that will serve you and your customers for years without them knowing (or caring) what year your system was built in.

[pete f]

Pete,

Can you share your vend prices and hours of operation? I'd be happy to crunch the numbers and let you know what I come up with. Can't promise that it will work but it does not hurt to run the numbers and let you decide?

The other reason for me starting this post is to get a feel for what it will take to get more retrofit business. There is no question that 90% of my business is new stores over 2,500 sq/ft but I also realize that there are allot more existing stores (big and small) that run on coin that could benefit from a card system. If by the time I've gathered enough feed back that the majority of existing store owners want a lower cost system then it would be foolish for me to not develop a product that met their needs. There are a lot of things we put into our system that make it expensive, we believe that it also makes it superior. There is no reason why we could not develop something that met the retrofit markets needs? I just need to know what it is that they need!

Thanks for the post!


6 am to midnite, all washers are about 10 cent a pound capacity, dryers 6.5 mins / .25

remember, my stores are unattended and I need high security type cabinets, a big reason I chose my last card system.

Lastley, I did not anser your question as to would I have used CCi if the price was similar to the system I bought. Yes, I probably would have. I have not seen you cabinet so I would have to see it and decide if it is strong enough for my unattended store.

[Laundry_king]

What do you mean by outdated?
Is that your point?
If you are talking about usefulness then that is an entirely different topic....
Keep in mind that the thing that we are referring to do not last forever, nothing does....
I have had my system for 3 years and have yet to replace (or need to replace a major component)....
This is a one-time cost as is the shipping and acquisition of the vaults themselves, which I assume is not insignificant....

Thesaurus English--outdated
Out-of-date
Old-fashioned
Obsolete
Archaic
Outmoded

The question is how easy this unit is to upgrade? Mark this question is really not to you. Don’t take a fence please. I’m a programmer and I really respect SLM72 for what he is doing on this thread and what he has done.
He and I know once you build a program in a week there is something new coming down the road.
In five years how old is this technology really going to be? Will it have to be replaced.

When to upgrade
The rule of thumb should be this: Upgrade when the cost of not upgrading exceeds the cost of upgrading. New hardware should help you work faster and more efficiently. Or maybe you need to upgrade your hardware to run new software applications that will improve productivity. If that is the case, upgrading is your best bet.
Similar situations include a broken PC, one that crashes regularly, or otherwise keeps you from doing the work you need to do. Clearly, in each of these cases, it will cost you more to put off the upgrade than to go ahead with it.
If you have crunched the numbers and you need to upgrade, do not just rush out and buy the coolest, fastest, priciest computer on the lot. The best way to put off the inevitable obsolescence of your next computer is to make sure it meets all your business needs.
Take a look, not only at your current computing needs, but also at what your future requirements might be. Will you need a full-featured database program in the future? Will you run memory-hogging other special applications? And will your new machine integrate with your current network?
Food for thought?

[SLM72]

Pete,
Thanks for the additional info, It's late on Saturday I will try and work up some numbers tomorrow. Also I think you would like our enclosure, it's mostly 11 gauge cold rolled steel, we also use a "wrapped" door technique much like the Hamilton changer line where there are no pry points for a would be thief. We also use all Medeco locks with our own "CCI" security coded keys. Since CCI was started, to my knowledge there have only been two attempts nationally by thieves to break into them and both of them failed and no money was lost.

Mark,
We have been looking into doing some of what you mentioned, that’s part of the reason for this thread. I want to determine what is most important and what can I leave out of this imaginary "Retrofit System” I’ll share a little secret with you...."We have something really neat coming soon for retrofit willing store owners!!!"

King,
As you already know there is nothing we can do about the computers getting out dated?? It's going to happen, when we designed this product we tried to use as little proprietary hardware as possible and focus on our software. In fact the only proprietary hardware in the system is two small circuit boards inside the X-Changer and the card readers for the laundry equipment.

To date as we have developed new features for our system all of these features have been "Backwards Compatible" with all of the hardware we have used in the past. We offer the upgrades to our existing user base and use these new features as competitive selling advantages to drive new sales. In fact we are on the brink of a huge software upgrade based on the new features we reveled at the clean show this year. These features will also be made available to all of the existing clients who have a CCI LaundryCard system.

I'm sure that there will be a time when computer hardware will make a shift uncontrollable by us whereby we may have some non-backward compatible features, but so far this has not been the case. The CCI system you install today will successfully run your laundry for as long as you have that laundry, will you have to service it with time? Of course! I attribute much of our success so far to store owners who installed one CCI system then did another, then another, then another (you get the picture) It’s in my best interest to keep all of my existing system owners happy, cause I know that if they like my system and my support that when they build or buy another store I've got a great chance at another sale!

I'm not sure if I answered you question? If your asking me if you entire CCI system will have to be replaced in 5 years just because its 5 years old, then my answer is no. Your system should continue to do what you intended for it to do the day you installed for as long as you maintain it and your store.

Thanks for the great posts!!!!

[Laundry_king]

Thank you for your honesty.
Would there be a section to hack into if one wants to custom the program?
Or even do a beta to improve the system?

Ok how much do you thing price will drop in the next few years. I no this might be an unfair question.
But do you remember the Wang computers?
There cost were nuts to what we can get from a Dell today.

You’re in a business where things change day to day that is what scares me not the customers.

It’s the technology and the drop in cost.

Thank you

[Maywood2]

Here's why I have sort-of a conflicted response to considering a card store, for what it's worth. (Working on developing a new unattended neighborhood-style mat right now.)

I've heard a lot of not-necessarily-consistent information about cards...
-- they're not good for unattended stores;
-- they cost 20-25K
-- they cost 40K
-- they cost 60K
I'm sure these prices may all be accurate and it's just the size of the store that's affecting the cost, but it's hard to make even a preliminary decision to pursue a card system when you have absolutely no idea of even a rough realistic cost range.

I also can't help but think that there seems to be a lot of profit built into the prices. Look at the cost of computer components today, where Dell can sell a complete Dell Dimension 2400 computer for $329 (not a typo!) with an Intel Celeron 2.4 ghz processor, 256Mb RAM, AND a monitor (and their profit). So how do you justify multi-tens of thousands ($10K? $30K?) for a value adder station that seems like less than 2 PCs worth of parts?

For example, manufacturers can sell a state-of-the-art videogame (Megatouch brand) loaded with 165 highly-complex games, a 19" LCD touch screen, a bill acceptor, and a modem for internet access and networked multi-players, for about $4400 (retail). And that leaves them a presumably-decent profit. Add in a card writer, and how different is the Value Adder machine? Certainly it's not more complex.

The buy-in for a card system just sounds extraordinarily expensive, relative to their components. It makes it hard to feel that you're going to get a fair deal.

Having said all that, I still will consider one for my new store (mostly because of the security aspect while collecting, and for dryer pricing increments). But it is a tough sell at the prices they seem to be at...

Also, I'd be the first one to use cards in my area. No one can really say for sure what the customer acceptance will actually be.

Here's a thought for reducing the cost for smaller owners -- could you not limit the number of readers that can be hooked up to the system, and sell that as a "Basic" package (say 1-20 washers). If you have a bigger store (and presumably more need for support from the company, and more machines to spread the total system cost across), have levels of an "Enhanced" package that costs more to buy, but which allows more machines to be connected.

Just my rantings... :)

John

[Kitty]

I do not know much at all about the card systems, not near as much as Mark any way, but I will listen to anyones advice and comments with open ears and open mind.... Seems he could sell the CCI systems. He's doing an excellent job answer questions ;) LK, part of the attration of this board to its users is this fact we have members jumping in answering questions to posts. Get used to it.

I have yet to price an entire system for a store. But i can't image NOT putting a card store in from the start. There are too many positives with the card store when starting from the begining not to go ahead and doing it. Now, for the customer acceptance issues, for unattended stores, that would be a challenge in the beginining. You would have to be hands on I would think for a short period in the beginning. But that should be a given. It is everyowners job to win customers acceptance and market new changes and bring new services.

With the technology system today you could live comfortably in another location have a fleet of mats with a competent trusted manager. With the CCI or even another system there is remote access and auditing controls. CCI system reporting is very detailed and will allow you to really understand your business and your customers habits. How awesome does that sound?

Retooling an exsiting store is a little more to choke up on. But it is something some should have started to think about 5 years ago and move toward this type of change. As far as technology changing after your purchase, of course it does. I thought I bought the latest Dell desktop but by teh time they shipped it to me and I checked the tracking of the order they had a new version out.....It will always happen. Comapnies will strive to make a better version of what they currently have on the market. That is their job. They won't make what they currently sell obsolete. It will all work together...


The fact of the ease in incremental price increases I'd think any mat would want to get away from coin and away from lugging them around!

[SLM72]

King,

It's a hard question to ask, If you look at Dell computer for example every 6 months they come out with a new model or a variant of an existing model. When this model comes out it's at it's highest price after 6 months it is at it's lowest price, but a new model is now available that is faster, better, does more....

Since we are really selling our software it's better not to work your self up about the cost of the equipment but rather the ROI and whether the system will pay for it's self in the time frame you want it to. No one has any control over what this equipment costs and as long as technology keeps evolving and getting better the price will stay at a constant level so the vendors revenues stay high.

What we are offering is a software package that utilizes whatever hardware platforms are available at the time. It will change! and it might go down? and it might go up? It's the ROI that’s most important. The only way for us to develop a system that costs less is going for us to substitute some of the hardware for brands that cost less! We are actually weighing out those options now, and trying to determine if it will be worth it or not. If the quality of the end product is compromised too much then it would not be good for our systems reputation.

In response to your "hacking" question, we have lots of data available for export from the system but the core applications are not for "public open" development. Before you ask about how you can reprogram my systems I'd suggest you take a long hard look at it, you may find there is not much you would want to do to it!

[Anonymous]

We are wanting to retro our large mat. The biggest problem is getting information. I contacted every vendor and did my due dilligence. I narrowed down to 2 systems I like and low and behold I cannot get a price without going through my distributor. This is the same distributor that talked us OUT OF a card system 1 YEAR AGO when we opened. So, he filled our head with his old school thoughts and now we have to give him a cut to retrofit. I can get over that, but here I am months later and NO PRICE. Its hard to buy a system when the card system vendors are so married to distributors that dont want to sell their systems. Maybe you should tell them to pound sand and once they realized they just lost money they will wake up and smell the hard drives burning.

[Laundry_king]

Man oh man SLM72,
you really can give answers and a intelligent answers at that.

Thank you very much for this GREAT thread.

May I ask, are you a programmer. What did you do before this?

You should be a politician. Your answer's are very well thought out and I thank you.

[SLM72]

John (Maywood),

Thanks for the great post (or as you call "Rantings"),

One of the keys to you your question that you are not considering when you look at the cost of our system is the development, Maintenance, Warranty, and Service. I wish that if all I had to do was buy a couple of Dell PC's throw them in a steel box and "wahla!" I can sell a card system for $40K. Unfortunately this is not the case, It also has nothing to do with complexity as far as comparing it to a MegaTouch. Just as I am trying to build you an ROI for putting in a card system in your store, I have to build an ROI to cost justify developing, maintain, servicing, and warranting the system. The reason why LaundryCard may appear to be much more expensive than a MegaTouch is Volume. There are only about 300 Laundromats built in the US every year, probably only 25-30% of them go card and then I have 4-6 competitors viaing for that business. I would be conservative in my estimate that the megatouch system probably sells 300 units a month! there are only 17 Laundromats opening a month with card system which I do not get every sale (I wish!) My ROI has to be calculated based on my potential sales environment, If I shared with you what the sheer development and engineering costs were for building LaundryCard you would say "How can they sell it so cheap!" (Just kidding). My point is that if you can't get over comparing LaundryCard to a Dell Dimension that sells for $400 then at least make sure you have all the facts and aspects that go into building and maintaining such a product.

I'm not going to try an convince you that we don't make any money when we sell a system, but I'm certainly not ashamed of it!! Don't you sell your laundry services for a profit? Is that not why we are all in business?

My family built this system with over 30 years of Owner/Operator/Distributor/Service experience in the self service laundry business. We feel that this system represents the future of the business and is also the number #1 way to maximize profits in your store!

Your suggestion about offering system for smaller stores with limits is a great one! We have been and are working on some solutions that may incorporate that concept. Again, the reason I started this thread is to get your feedback! I appreciate your comments John!

[SLM72]

DSchmick,

Sorry to hear about your problem with getting a good response, call me 866-860-1660. You will have a price before the end of the day.

You bring up a great issue with Distribution. Many people ask me why we don't sell direct and force the customers to buy through distributors. Let me address this real quick...

We are a small family business (just like you probably!) based just outside of Chicago. We do not have a national sales force or retail outlet in every metropolitan area. Since most of our business comes from new store being built we have to focus our attention on Laundry Distributors. When investors are looking into building or getting into the laundry business they almost always contact the distributors in their area. We would not have an opportunity to get in front of these investors if it were not for our distributors. I get the most bang for my buck in reaching the most new store investors by working with distributors. Now the thing with distributors is that they don't like it when manufactures compete with them on the same product, it's like buying a Ford F150 pickup truck from your local dealer and also having Ford sell you direct from their factory. Chances are that if Ford did that there dealers would drop Ford as a product line and pick up a different line of truck.

We need our distributors, but we also need you the store owner to get the right information. It's true that there are a lot of distributors who are very "old school" and that’s my job, to educate them. My phone is always open to customer and store owners, if you are not getting the type of response you think you should be getting, call me direct.

Thanks again for the post!

[Buddy_Amoroso]

Too long of pay-back period.

The additional expesnse of reto fitting my store to a card system would not be offsetted by additional revenue.

buddy amoroso
baton rouge, la

[SLM72]

Buddy,

Interesting, most stores over 2,500 sq/ft with good volume will see a cash ROI in less then 6 months? Have you ever had an ROI analysis done for your store?

[SLM72]

King,

I am not a programmer, but my background has always been focused around computers. Mostly integration and hardware, with my family's lifetime of laundry experience it was a natural procession to bring the two together to create LaundryCard.

Thanks for the kind words.

[SuperMat]

I have your CCI system and happen to love it. My only question would be why you don't fix, or limit the final price of the sytem? I recieved multiple quotes when building a store, and no two were the same for your system. You mentioned a car dealer, when was the last time you paid more than sticker price for a car? Let the public know what the system should sell for, eliminate the distributor from using their own motivations to price your system out of the equation.

[SLM72]

PeteF,

I ran some numbers based on the info you gave me in the earlier posts (thanks by the way). Granted, not every store is a great candidate for a cards system it really depends on the store owner and what they are trying to achieve. Also I only counted 20 washers not 26 so my numbers here may be a little off. Here is my observation...

If you were to install our system and raise you vend prices by $.11 across the board, you would get your cash (out of pocket) investment in about 6 months. This is based on the you doing the same number of turns on your equipment as you do today. After debt service you would realize a gain in net profit of about $500 a year. Once your system was paid off (5 Years) you would realize a net profit gain of over $10,000 a year.

If we run the same formula and increase the vend prices by $.13 across the board your cash ROI is 3.3 months with a realized net profit increase of over $2,700 per year. After debt service a realized gain of over $12,400 a year.

You probably have enough coin in your changers to make the down payment!

This is it, a smaller store with an ROI under 4 months. What you have to ask yourself is "Will my customers tolerate a $.11 - $.13 vend price increase?" I can't answer this question for you, In many cases where stores are doing a little more gross volume and have a few more machines the ROI works with only increasing the vend prices by $.06

Hopefully I proved my point that a card system 'can' work in all types of stores. Ofcourse some are better candidates then others but the math of the situation helps all store owners.

I think it's a safe assumption that most markets can tolerate a $.06 increase without much fuss. And also don't forget about all the other great advantages the card system brings to your business!

Thanks for the opportunity to lay this out for you.

[SLM72]

SuperMat,

Thanks for the post. You have a good point and I take it seriously that you feel that the pricing is a ‘mystery’ we have a published 'List' price just like car dealers have a MSRP price for every car. Distributors should be quoting your system based on that number.

We can provide you the list price of the system at any time. I don't like to throw List Price out because it often scares customers. Most distributors should be discounting from list to attract your business just like car dealers. You have the power and the option to purchase from any dealer that sells our product in your area. And you can compare that to the List Price available by us or any dealer for that matter.

We are also considering changing our pricing model a bit in 2006 that may also help with this issue. We are not sure how this is going to affect our distribution network. But we believe that it's important that customers get the feeling that they are getting a good value for what they pay.

Thanks for the post!

[Fred50]

SLM,

Does the analysis for PeteF take additional float into account? This would certainly shorten the payback period if it's not included.

It may be difficult to quantify, but the marketing aspects of the system are tremendously valuable as well. The ability to market to existing customers using the database or use pre-valued cards for distribution to new customers are very powerful.

You also have to consider what your time is worth. The difference in collection time between a card and coin store can really add up. In addition, in my area many banks are charging a fee for depositing coins as well.

[SLM72]

Mark,

Yes the figures stated accounts for a 2% float. 2% is the lowest float we have been reported to see a store realize. It's possible that the numbers I showed will get better if his float turns out higher.

The other thing that PeteF could do to improve his ROI is charge for the cards. I'm aware that he already has a smart card system in one of his stores and has stated that he does not get a big pushback from his customers for charging $2 for the card. If he wanted to he could charge $2 for his Mag cards and make $1.35 a card!

If he sells 5,000 cards over two years that would bank him an additional $6,750!!!

[Anonymous]

Do you charge for tech support? If so how much?

[pete f]

Mark,

Yes the figures stated accounts for a 2% float. 2% is the lowest float we have been reported to see a store realize. It's possible that the numbers I showed will get better if his float turns out higher.

The other thing that PeteF could do to improve his ROI is charge for the cards. I'm aware that he already has a smart card system in one of his stores and has stated that he does not get a big pushback from his customers for charging $2 for the card. If he wanted to he could charge $2 for his Mag cards and make $1.35 a card!

If he sells 5,000 cards over two years that would bank him an additional $6,750!!!


my new store has about 4% float, I am new to this, I assume float is calculated on money taken in but not spent. I charge $1 for a card, the float covers the balance. I don't get the float, but I get all the other benefits. My last price increase of .05 cent per machine resulted in the biggest week we have ever had. It was not due to the price increase, but upping washers, dryers only a nickel did not piss anyone off as far as I can tell.

The other store is at the HIGH end of that market, and assuming I loose 15% of the customers due to a card system, it may not be my best move. I know my new store would do MUCH more if it was coin, but I like to sleep at nite and with 3 other stores, I am willing to sacrifice revenue for convience. Yes, many customers hate cards, so this has to be taken into account. I think about it, but yet can not see spending money to install a card system.. Yet if I put in a new store or buy an old one and redo it I would put in cards. This is your answer to existing stores converting. Hard to figure? It is for me.

[n175h]

This is a great thread. Keep the comments coming.

Why would someone pay $2 for a card as a prerequisite to pay the vend price of your machine? You guys must operate in a non competitive market. If I gave the card for free, I'm out .85cents. So, what do you do with the guy that buys $2 worth of value, uses the card up one time and discards it? Now my revenue off the customer was only $1.15 and he's gone.

I would consider a card store if I could do the installation myself. However, I would rather have a coding system. The value transfer machine would be the similar to what's out there now. The customer walks up, buys his value with cash or CC and receives a receipt (like at the gas pump) for the value with a five digit code, the last number always zero.

Every washer and dryer has a 10 key pad. The customer enters the 1st four digits and the zero is the "enter" command. This checks the customer's account balance, debits it, and starts the machine. On the dryers, he would enter his code a second or third time for additional time, similar to more quarters, more time.

10 key pads should be much less expensive than card readers and less likely to be attacked by soap, softner, etc. A 10 key pad for a Radio Shack alarm is how much? $40 bucks, perhaps. How much is a replacement card swipe reader?

This would eliminate the cards and associated expense. If the customer dropped down to less credit than a start time, he could walk over to the VTM and check his balance, add time if desired, so he wouldn't lose his credit balance. I'm sure the VTM could be programmed with all this. That is all software stuff.

Hamilton has this system on their Autotecs which I use on my automatic carwash. I've had it since 1993, so the technology isn't new, but they don't do laundry equipment. I think Jim Coleman Co. has carwash equipment like this, so it can be done.

Like the others, the cost has frightened me. I don't know if all your cost is in your software, hardware, or installation. If most is in the hardware, then my approach should help lessen that. If it's software, then you gotta make what you think you can get. If it's installation, give me a manual and I'll do it myself. I can install plug "A" into socket "B". I don't need to pay a guy $30-$50/hour to do that.

In one perspective I look at this piece of equipment as a coin mechanism. Thinking of that, I can only remember replacing about 2 or 3 in the past 10 years to the tune of approx $600. $40-60k for a coin mechanism is a lot.

I understand I'm getting a currency changing system, credit card capability and an accounting system which has value. I'm also eliminating coin handling. All that has value. I am adding some complexity to the store. If the system fails, all the machines are down.

Just thinking out loud and giving you some thoughts.

David

[SLM72]

VHLaundry,

When you buy a system you get two years of tech support included. After that you may choose to purchase a service contract or pay per incident. The service contract is $600 for up to 8 calls or $150 per incident if you choose not to purchase a contract.

Also remember that we offer some of the best support available, 24/7 365 days a year.

Thanks.

[SLM72]

PeteF,

As I said when I posted my results for your store that a card system is not always the best option. You said that your biggest reason was that your store was too small to warrant a card system, you did not mention that you also thought that you would loose 15% of your customers for changing to it! This feeling that customers "Hate" card systems is one I do not agree with, sure there are some people who don't like change but I would be shocked to think it was 15% of your customer base. Customers who I've talked to who said they did not like the card system, actually did not care about the card system they were more upset about how the store was run and that there was no one to help them on their first card system experience. Once I walked these customers though the experience and "sold" them on the concepts and how it helps them they seemed to be very happy.

Pete, for you and your store it's a touch decision, I see it as a way for you to make thousands more a year. It seems that from your response that you believe that your customers won't like it and will boycott your store. I'm not sure how to make you fee otherwise except to offer you phone numbers to some of my other users who you could have these discussions. Bottom line, as I said before the decision is up to you, thanks for the opportunity to show a possibility!

[Fred50]

This is a great thread. Keep the comments coming.

Why would someone pay $2 for a card as a prerequisite to pay the vend price of your machine? You guys must operate in a non competitive market. If I gave the card for free, I'm out .85cents. So, what do you do with the guy that buys $2 worth of value, uses the card up one time and discards it? Now my revenue off the customer was only $1.15 and he's gone.

If the system fails, all the machines are down.

David

David,

I would like to address 2 of your points. The first is the concept of charging for a card or not. I agree with you that a customer shouldn't have to pay for the privilege of doing business with you. I currently don't charge for cards. My 2 main competitors have started to recently, so I may rethink my position.

Note that in your example, a customer who spends little and discards the card may leave you with little profit, but these instances in my case are far and few between. On average, customers leave much more balance on the card then it costs me to purchase them. Much of this float is never used and it keeps adding up over time.

Are far as system failures go, they rarely happen and CCI comes standard with 2 complete systems that continually back each other up. Therefore, you should never be down. I have heard that some owners have that as their main concern, but in 3 years the only time that my store was down was when half the country was without power.

[SLM72]

N175H,

I think you took the $2 card comment out of context, I'm not suggesting that anyone charge customers for their cards. But it is an option that many store owners who have smart card systems have to do! If you (store owner) are paying $2 a card from your vendor it would be very difficult to give the card to your customer for free. Some smart card system owners have stated that the $2 charge to the customer is not a big deal and most of their customers do not complain about it. With our system we use Mag Stripe cards which have a much lower purchase cost for store owners (Less then $.80) In my scenario I was showing PeteF how my card system can work in a small store (Financially), one of the ways to improve the ROI could be to charge the customer for the card just like a smart card system. Even without charging for the card the numbers still work and a card system could still be a way for the store to go.

We don't have any rules about customers not installing the system them selves, we do ask that if they do that prior to install they attend a 2 day training session that we offer here in out offices. It's not only to teach you how to install but to teach you how to utilize it and troubleshoot it.

You idea with the coding system has been considered before and after we weighed out all of the pros and cons as compared to using a card reader it ultimately directed us to using card readers. Also remember that it's not the $40 keypad that would cost you, it would be the device that would allow you to connect 50 keypads to a host computer, and the development of that device, and the development of the network that would allow those devices to communicate, and the development of the software on the host computer, and the design and engineering behind the user interface! How much is the Hamilton code system? Multiply that out by the number of washers and dryers you have in your store? I appreciate the idea's, keep em coming.

As far as "if it fails, all machines are down" we have developed a lot of redundancy in to the system to help ensure that does not happen. Short of a power failure to your building there is always a system for keeping your store running. Also your Keypad concept would be subject to the same "all machines are down" possibility especially if you networked the key pads. There is not a mag stripe system available today for Laundromats that offers all the levels of redundancy that we do.

Thanks again for all the posts, I hope it's as valuable to all who read them as it has been for me.

[Fred50]

PeteF,

Why do you think that your customers would hate a card system?

In 3 years, I have only had 1 customer that left because we have a card system. She had a basket of wet blankets because her washer overflowed and I was too tired to try to talk her out of leaving. She also had a major attitude.

Some customers are skittish about the system at first. However, if the store owner, manager and employees are knowledgable about the system and have good customer service skills, it is a piece of cake.

I give some customers a 2-minute tutorial and they are off and running. People love the fact that they no longer have to save quarters, or go to the bank for them or even the grocery store. It is much easier for the customers to use than a coin-based system and they catch on to that fact rather quickly.

Now, we rarely have to help customers with the system as they either figure it out themselves, a friend or family member brings them in and shows them how to do it, or another customer takes them through it. The trick is to spend time on education when you first get the system up and running and the rest will take of itself.

The only real negatives I get regarding the card system is from people who are looking for quarters. There are several apt buildings that have laundries around me. I have a few people a week come in looking for quarters. When we ask them why, they say it's for doing laundry. The banks and stores in our area no longer give out quarters, especially to non-customers. When we tell them that we don't have them or use them, they usually get beligerent and leave in disgust.

[Anonymous]

CCI:

You seem very confident in your assertions of ROI. 6 months 'cash on cash' return. The 5 year payoff, including interest charges all while giving the owner many benefits. It all sounds good but it seems like you are still having trouble convincing existing mat owners they will make more money by spending ~$40k.

I imagine that it is hard to sell a $40k system to someone who doesn't really see a problem. It is even harder when the main way to pay for the system is to raise prices. If owners believed they could raise prices and not lose customers, they would have already have done it. I see a slight advantage in the smaller increment, but not $40,000 worth. Maybe if you decided that you would always be a nickel lower than your competitor it could be very helpful, but again, will it really bring in that much business? Float sounds good, but it isn't enough to give the ROI's you are talking about.

So to the idea: Start leasing to existing mats based off of a profit increase as the maximum monthly price. It wouldn't cost the mat owner anything to install, you keep 90% of the increased revenue until the system is paid off, with interest. Then pad the price of the system an extra $5k to insure that you don't take losses. The owner will not care because he gets all the benefits of cards, with zero cost.

Maybe do a new poll. "If I give you a CCI system, will you give me 90% of the extra profit until it is paid off?"

What do existing mat owner's think?

Mark (who is just investigating the business)

[n175h]

CCI,

What is the difference in developing the software for keypads over card swipe technology? What is the difference between networking 80 card swipe devices and 80 keypads? I like the keypad device becsause it could be flat mounted on the meter box and dryer fronts and the coin mechanisms could stay in place. They could stand alone separate from the key pad system in case of failure, reducing some of the costs of redundancy you must employ in your system. True your accounting would be off by not counting the coins in the system, but that doesn't matter in my case. I collect the money, not my employees.

I embrace this system because it eliminates the cards, it doesn't make my existing coin drops obsolete. The keypads costs less. I'm no computer person, but if you had the software available, explain the difference of networking 80 keypads and 80 card readers and the asscociated cost therin.

I embrace this system because it seems less complex. The carwash industry has used this for 10 years with the pay at the pump. You buy gas, select the carwash option you want, the printer gives you the xxxxx digit code on your receipt, drive to the command post, enter the code and wash the car. I don't have to carry an extra card in my wallet to get my car washed. I can chunk the receipt after completion or keep it for my records.

How simple is that?

The technology must be there as I previously stated. Jim Coleman CO. sells 10 keypad systems for his carwash equipment. The pads act as a code entering device and equipment selection device, very slick. The pads are on the meter box. All the controls are in the equipment room for security. Nothing but a small cable back to the equipment room. However, his concentration is the carwash industry, not the laundry business.

Your deeply invested in your current technology, and for that reason wouldn't think of venturing into a different method. The card system is the fashionable alternative to coin right now with only a few players, manufacturing, thus the high cost. Hopefully, someone will read these posts and someday a 10 keypad system may be introduced into the laundry business as an alternative.

David

[Kitty]

I would think the attraction of any of these new high tech systems would be to allow the fact another person/ employee-manager could be in control of the money aspect as the auditing features are so precise. I also understand that the accounting details and reporting are clear as well and can keep you in total control of your expenditures and revenue generating areas whereas you will be able make the best possible decisions for your business and keep your profit margin in the positive and growing versus declining over your years of doing business ! This is a huge asset to this type of system, this is a huge value to the system. As an owner, you can micro manage your business to the smallest detail and understand the smallest detail of your customer. While not every market will warrant this type of system, be certain this is where the industry is heading.

Take notice of SSI and welfare they are card based systems that the poor and the immigrants are quickly becoming very familiar with. While no one wants to pay more than necessary for any system nor go out on a limb for something they cannot justify be certain technology like the card systems is where the industry is heading and having such advantages as incremental pricing is a competitive advantage that cannot be overlooked anymore especially with utilities taking jumps like they have in the past 3 years....
Kitty

[SLM72]

David,

Please don't take my response as a smack on your idea. Your idea sounds fine, as I said there are a lot of details that had us decide at the time we were building CCI to use cards. You ask...

"What is the difference in developing the software for keypads over card swipe technology? What is the difference between networking 80 card swipe devices and 80 keypads?"

There is no difference, except the software / hardware to link those 80 keypads from Radio Shack does not exist. Once you have developed all of the pieces to make it work the keypads and "receipt dispenser" would cost the same as what we sell a card system today for. I like the idea from the perspective that both coin and "Keypad" could be used at the same time. One of the issues is in relation to customer balances, if a customer puts in $5 and gets a receipt with a code for $5 and the washer costs $4 and the dry time cost $.75 how does he redeem the last $.25? Does he keep the number and add value to that number? Does the attendant refund the difference? Do they keep that receipt and buy another receipt for $1 and then key in both numbers to total $1.25 for the next wash?

There are lots of details that would have to be discussed to make such a product a reality, My question why reinvent it? If the card system gives you what your looking for?

Again I'm not asking these question to Bash your idea, (I like your idea) the truth is we have no commitment to cards, it was a way to the means of our solution. We are a development company, we develop technology products, I would be foolish to pass on a good idea!!

The J Coleman system you describe sounds very similar to how our system is wired. I'd be interested in how much a 10 Keypad system costs?

The bottom line, The poll asks what your biggest reason NOT to convert you Coin Laundry to Card? I'll assume you voted "Card Systems are too Expensive" If that’s the real reason you think a new "Keypad system" should be created then wouldn't it make sense for us to build a version of our system that costs less? That’s the purpose for this thread, to find out what store owners really want!

Thanks for you candid comments!

[SLM72]

Mark (Bobblehead),

You and I may have been friends in a former life (Ha Ha)!

You bring up a lot of good points, I think some of the things you mention need to emphasized...

"I imagine that it is hard to sell a $40k system to someone who doesn't really see a problem"

You are right, some people have a hard time seeing the trees through the forest. There is a big problem in the laundry business and it's always been based around reluctance to increase vend prices. The utilities rise and many store owners are afraid to loose business if they raise their prices. And up until the invent of card system thier only option was to raise them in quarter increments. If you get a 20% increase in you gas cost? How do you increase you dryers revenue by 20% to compensate, if you use quarters? You can reduce the time but what if you are already running the dryer at 7min per $.25? How much shorter can you go?

The ability to change vend prices in small penny increments is a BIG DEAL! not a small one as you elude. For example customers who use large washers lets say a 75# washer that costs $5.75 to start, that’s 23 quarters it takes to start that machine. If you raise that vend price $.50 to accommodate the gas increase it now take 25 quarters to start. Customer notice when they drop quarters when the number the drop changes and it raises tension. In a card environment you can gradually raise or lower prices in swing with utility costs keeping your margins level. The same customer who has to drop 23 quarters to start the 75# machine uses one push, and one pull to start the same machine with a card. If the washers vend goes up $.50, it's still one push, one pull, the perception to the customer is less noticeable.

Float sounds good in a small store, but it's great in a big store! It's not unusual for float to build to 10 -15k a year for a 3,000 sq/ft store. Double that for a 6,000 sq/ft store. This is big money!

I like your leasing idea! if I could find a way make sure I got my fair share each month I would probably offer it. I'm not a bank, not sure the store owner would send me my check! or would they want me to be auditing their systems each month to figure my percentage! May be I could talk one of our finance companies to offer a plan this way.

Once this thread is dead, I may post your poll!!!

Thanks for the post!

[Anonymous]

So once I am out of warranty I have to pay for tech support. I am glad wascomat doesnt charge for tech support.

One thing I do not like about the card system is that CCI would have complete access to what my sales are. How do I know you will not share that info with distributors or my competitors. I am sure most owners do not want to share that info.

[laundryboy]

Careful when "running" the numbers. Remember, simply adding an additional washer with the new pricing would pay for everything, if relaying on the spreadsheet.

I believe in analyzing the numbers. But, reality is not in the spreadsheet results.

I really like the idea of small price increments, especially when dealing with my dryers and the price of natural gas.

If I was building new, I would install a card system. The cost is more but less so than a retrofit. The cost of a swipe isn't much greater than a good coin drop. Reliability of swipe mechanisms is high. Swipe devices and the technology in them are old hat and everywhere. Like most computer/technology stuff, it gets cheaper and more reliable as time passes.

You would be purchasing a changer anyway.

As far as price increases, though, the market will bear WHAT the market will bear. If I could raise prices more, I would. Four years ago gas was less than .60 a therm and a dryer was priced at 10 to 12min/25. Now, gas has more than doubled and dryers are priced at 8min/25 in many laundries. That is crazy. Dryers should be in the 3-5min/25 range or lower! Why haven’t owners adjusted more aggressively? Does it come back to reality? Not a spreadsheet. I have 3 laundries, from 1800sq ft to 5000sq ft. All have different pricing reflective of the areas they serve. I would love to run a spreadsheet on the big one - then get a buyer based on the POTENTIAL of the equipment mix!

[SLM72]

Vhlaundry,

Does Wascomat offer tech support on weekends, holidays, or even after normal business hours? If you call Microsoft because you have a problem with your home computer do they charge you? Doesn’t this bulletin board (Coinwash.com) charge a premium to access the service threads?

The reality is that if you called someone to fix a machine in your store you would pay them for their time? Right? Why is it wrong for us to ask you to pay us in the same manner? Our time is valuable and we offer a great service at a good value.

It is not required that you give us full remote access to your system. We have a great reputation with our customers and do not share financial information with anyone. We have lots of customers who have purchased second, third, forth, and fifth systems from us. We would never jeopardize our relationship or reputation as you have suggested.

[SLM72]

Laundryboy,

When you built or bought your stores did you not "run the numbers" against a spread sheet? I agree that paper and reality are two very different animals, but all good concepts start on paper. I've always tried to be a conservative with the numbers as to represent the most accurate reality.

I bet that if your store was for sale and you were severely under pricing your machines, the first thing on the new buyers list would be to increase the vend price! Whether they do it with a card system or not.

If Laundromats don't follow the rising utility costs and continue to accept a lower profit margin they will start to fail. It wont be immediate, it will be a slow death. It might start with cutting corners with the labor and the store starts to get messy, then as the machines break down they stop fixing them, then as the lights burn out they stop replacing them. Eventually all that is left is a dark, dirty, un serviced Laundromat that no one wants to go to. Customers feel so disgusted that they end up going elsewhere, where the prices are higher anyway!

Thanks for you comments!!!

[Kitty]

If more owners would analyze their business revenue and expenses more closely including tracking customers equipment repairs, and tracking equipment usage more closely many business would find this informaton very helpful to increase their yearly growth year after year and they would be far more successful. However, because most owners choose not to anaylze numbers and track their business, or do not know how to or do not have the capabilities to do so, they are missing. These types of systems make it so much easier to compile and report

[Fred50]

Careful when "running" the numbers. Remember, simply adding an additional washer with the new pricing would pay for everything, if relaying on the spreadsheet.

I believe in analyzing the numbers. But, reality is not in the spreadsheet results.

I really like the idea of small price increments, especially when dealing with my dryers and the price of natural gas.

If I was building new, I would install a card system. The cost is more but less so than a retrofit. The cost of a swipe isn't much greater than a good coin drop. Reliability of swipe mechanisms is high. Swipe devices and the technology in them are old hat and everywhere. Like most computer/technology stuff, it gets cheaper and more reliable as time passes.

You would be purchasing a changer anyway.

As far as price increases, though, the market will bear WHAT the market will bear. If I could raise prices more, I would. Four years ago gas was less than .60 a therm and a dryer was priced at 10 to 12min/25. Now, gas has more than doubled and dryers are priced at 8min/25 in many laundries. That is crazy. Dryers should be in the 3-5min/25 range or lower! Why haven’t owners adjusted more aggressively? Does it come back to reality? Not a spreadsheet. I have 3 laundries, from 1800sq ft to 5000sq ft. All have different pricing reflective of the areas they serve. I would love to run a spreadsheet on the big one - then get a buyer based on the POTENTIAL of the equipment mix!


Laundryboy,

I speak from 3 years of experience with a CCI System. The numbers that they have quoted on this thread are very conservative and reality in the cases of their other customers that I have spoken to have exceeded all expectations. I think that people are much less price sensitive than we think - to a point!

The beauty of a card system is that you can continue to give your customers a full 10 minutes (or whatever you think they need) on the dryers and continue to increase the cost per cycle by pennies until you cover increased utility costs or the customers complain. The quarter equivalent of your dryers could be much less than 10 minutes without much negative feedback.

I have raised prices on every machine (sometimes more than once) during the time I have had the system and I rarely hear anything. Customers either don't notice the small increases or they don't feel them because they are not grabbing another quarter.

Note that I don't have to wait until I feel comfortable to increase my washers a quarter, I can do it in any increment to cover costs and I have done so with no complaints. Think about the time in between your quarter increases. Now think about how much more revenue you could raise if you were able to increase prices sooner, but in smaller increments. It would be easier for the customers to swallow and your revenue would increase sooner.

Your point about the latest jump in nat gas is very valid. Energy costs will continue to increase and where do coin store owners go from here on their dryers? I would not want to be the first guy in my area to go to 50 cents from 25 cents on my dryers when dropping time is no longer an option.

[Anonymous]

Maybe you should only charge for tech support after hours. I could see paying over $100 a hour if someone came out to fix it, but over the phone that seems like alot.

As far as viewing my sales I rather keep that to my self. If you go to bank they will say they keep your info confidential, but I know tellers who talk about and look up customer info all the time.

What is the average number of tech calls your get from store owners. You must know those numbers when you set up your pricing schedule for tech support.

[Anonymous]

I have one other question. Do CCI owners have to buy their mag cards from CCI distributors or do you mind if they have them made by a 3rd party for a cheaper price.

Thanks

[n175h]

CCI,

No insult taken about bashing my keypad idea. You did surmise that my biggest hold back was price. That is a big issue, obviously. You state you could devise a system at a better price. How? If you're priced close to the other players in the industry, what wiggle room do you have to go lower? I see very little competition in the arena with little incentive to reduce the price.

I have other concerns, too. Why would I need tech support for anything other than your software? Is your business model designed to make more money off the purchaser in the years after the sale through the life of the product? You can design it that way if you wish, but I want a system I can buy parts for with the least amount of proprietary hardware as possible. Take Wascomats for example. I can get parts from numerous sources, not just one distributor. In my opinion that creates competition and is good for the consumer, and it makes me want to buy your product again and again. This is a big issue in the carwash biz. Operators get really pissed when they are married to one distributor and all the parts are proprietary and those manufacturers get flamed big time on the chat room boards.

I've seen many normal wear parts available from various sources for all the brands of washers and dryers I own. I am very hesitant to buy capital equipment that locks me to one parts source.

I would like a system that I can keep my coin acceptance, also. This really only affects a retrofit location. I believe if this was ground up, new, that would be unnecessary. It would be all or nothing, and not both. Yea, it would create goofy price differences, say 1.32 for the card and 1.50 for coin, but it darn sure would get the customer to switch over to the card.

Another issue which has nothing to do with your technology, but here in Texas the Texas tax code specifically exempts COIN operated service machines from up to an 8.5% sales tax. Our state comptroller is always looking under rocks for more tax revenue. There is no statutory exemption of CARD operated service machines. Though the issue has not been challenged and card stores are not paying the tax as I know of, I see a future tsunami in the ocean. Our state association has fought hard, hard, to keep our exemption on the books and CLA takes a similar stand nationwide. We haven't mentioned card operated equipment because one of our biggest arguments is that, "we can't collect pennies in our coin mechanisms". Card technology blows that out of the water.

Again, great discussion. Let's keep it going. I'm learning a lot.

David

[Fred50]

CCI,

I have other concerns, too. Why would I need tech support for anything other than your software? Is your business model designed to make more money off the purchaser in the years after the sale through the life of the product? You can design it that way if you wish, but I want a system I can buy parts for with the least amount of proprietary hardware as possible. Take Wascomats for example. I can get parts from numerous sources, not just one distributor. In my opinion that creates competition and is good for the consumer, and it makes me want to buy your product again and again. This is a big issue in the carwash biz. Operators get really pissed when they are married to one distributor and all the parts are proprietary and those manufacturers get flamed big time on the chat room boards.

I've seen many normal wear parts available from various sources for all the brands of washers and dryers I own. I am very hesitant to buy capital equipment that locks me to one parts source.

I would like a system that I can keep my coin acceptance, also. This really only affects a retrofit location. I believe if this was ground up, new, that would be unnecessary. It would be all or nothing, and not both. Yea, it would create goofy price differences, say 1.32 for the card and 1.50 for coin, but it darn sure would get the customer to switch over to the card.

....

Again, great discussion. Let's keep it going. I'm learning a lot.

David


David,

I'll let SLM72 answer your other questions, but I would like to address a couple from a user's perspective specifically regarding tech support, parts and dual card/coin acceptance.

I have never needed the paid portion of CCIs customer support. I did have a ton of questions while I was under warranty. Most of the things that I called them about were very detailed questions about usage and suggestions for future improvements. If you ever have a basic, non-emergency question, CCIs support site is available and another user or a CCI employee will answer your question. The turnaround for this is usually less than 24 hours.

I think that it is fair if you call their emergency support they charge a fair price for it. They do not discourage users from asking questions or making comments about the system. I will let SLM72 discuss their reasoning behind their support system.

Most of the components of the CCI System that may need to be replaced are made by major manufacturers and are widely available.

- The bill acceptors are made by Mars. I have them serviced locally.
- The PCs are DELL. The system comes with a next day business repair/replacement warranty. SLM can give more details if needed.
- The UPSs, monitors, routers, modems, vault locks are all major brand names.
- The software is obviously proprietary as are the card readers.

I have seen one store which had a combo coin/card system. I don't remember the card system (it's irrelevant), but it was a disaster so I wouldn't recommend it. It failed for a few reasons. I don't think that the store owner was committed to the system - obviously. He did nothing to encourage customers to use the card system. The customers were confused by the 2 methods of payment.

[Fred50]

I have one other question. Do CCI owners have to buy their mag cards from CCI distributors or do you mind if they have them made by a 3rd party for a cheaper price.

Thanks

The beauty of most mag stripe systems (CCI included) is that you can buy your cards anywhere. I believe that most chip/smart cards are proprietary and that is one of the reasons that they are so expensive relative to mag stripe cards. Cost is the main reason that most owners with chip systems are almost forced to charge for the cards.

CCIs cards are attractive, virtually error-free and reasonably priced so that is not an issue for me.

[SLM72]

VHLaundry,

Let me make sure you understand our support policy... 2 Years support is free. After that it's an OPTION to buy a support contract or pay per Incident NOT by the hour, That means that if your call takes 3 hours to resolve or 3 two hour calls to resolve its only $100 dollars. We really encourage store owners to learn their system, we do not make money on these support calls, the $100 dollars or support contracts do not bring in enough revenue to pay my support personnel. We are only trying to recover some of the costs. We have two full time support people plus myself that are ready to take your calls, between the three of us we cover 24 hours a day 7 days a week.

Also why is someone’s time worth more to you if they come to your store then if you are talking to them on the phone? With our remote service capabilities we actually do come to your store in a virtual sense!

The nice think about our system is it does not require a lot of service, I'd be lying if I said my support people and I were busy all day fixing problems. Some days go by and we don't get a single support call!

Also try to remember we are a small business just like you we do not have the size or sales volume of Wascomat. We are doing what it takes to run a small business successfully. We offer superior product and service and a good price (hopefully just like you in your Laundromat).

[SLM72]

David,

Mark is correct, there are only two components within the X-Changer cabinets (value stations) that are proprietary. And the only reason they exist is that there was no such components available for purchase! We had to make them in order to accomplish the finished product. I can also tell you that these two components are inexpensive and probably costs less then an 80# drain valve. The other proprietary part is our card readers, we could have purchased and OEM card reader but after researching we came to the realization that we could build one for the Laundromat business that was of much higher quality then we could buy. All other electronic devices in our system are 'off the shelf' you could source and buy them from lots of suppliers (more suppliers then your Wascomat Parts!) In fact there are more proprietary parts on a Wascomat then there are on our system!!! Of course we do have a fully stocked parts department and would be happy to quote customers on parts, but they don't have to buy them from us.

What’s my incentive for building a lower cost system? I don't know that’s why I started this thread!!! You obviously don't have a card system yet... That’s incentive! This is why I asked the original question "What's the biggest reason NOT to convert your Coin Laundry to Card?" I want to know, how do I earn more of your business? I'm listening and responding to everyone’s comments and questions. I'm hoping that by the time this thread is dead I'll have a better understanding. If it's possible to build a product that would convince you that a card system is right thing for my Laundromat then I will build it.

As far as having dual acceptance I'm intrigued but not a fan of the concepts. I believe that the reasons to switch to card would be negated if coins were left on the machine as well. Just my opinion.

Your issue with sales tax in Texas is real doosie... Wisconsin is the same way and the Laundromat community has been trying to change this tax rule. There is not much I can do about that, sorry.

Thanks for the posts!

[Anonymous]

Thanks for your valuable info. I am still curious and I am sure you know, what is the average # of "incident" calls you get from store owners.

Also are owners obligated to buy mag cards from CCI or its distributors.
I know there are companies such as:

http://www.cornermark.com/plasticcards/creditdebit/
Tell them you saw their link on Coinwash.com. And to please become a Sponsor of Coinwash.com too

that sell them cheaper.

[SLM72]

VHLaundry,

Over the last 12 months the average has been about 3 calls per store. So that means each store in that has our system called in for help only 3 times in 1 year for help, on average.

Yes, we request that all cards be purchased through a CCI distributor. This allows us to keep control over the quality of the card, initially we did not require this and a number of customers went and had their own cards created. It was disastrous! Almost every customer had problems with the "after market" cards. We were the only ones who would help them; the card vendors did not offer support or refunds for the cards. After a number of customers got frustrated, we decided that the only way to make sure that your system ran correctly and that we could warrant the performance of the store was to require CCI cards be purchased through us. Since the change we have never had a quality issue, also we manage the database ranges on the card numbers to ensure no duplicates.

Thanks for you post!

[Fred50]

Thanks for your valuable info. I am still curious and I am sure you know, what is the average # of "incident" calls you get from store owners.

Also are owners obligated to buy mag cards from CCI or its distributors.
I know there are companies such as:

http://www.cornermark.com/plasticcards/creditdebit/
Tell them you saw their link on Coinwash.com. And to please become a Sponsor of Coinwash.com too
that sell them cheaper.

Vhlaundry,

See my previous post re: card availability.

[RAM]

Mark,
I have heard from other cci store owner that you can not buy your mag stripe card from other source,it will not work because cci had or will make changes to there software,if they do that than they can raise there card price to whatever they want.

[POLLWOOD]

I like your system. I am just waiting for the "Canadian at Par" sale just like Disney has from time to time and would like to be the first Canadian install.
today's exchange rate- 1 US Dollar (USD) = 1.18070 Canadian Dollar (CAD)-ouch!

regards, Kent

[pete f]

The beauty of most mag stripe systems (CCI included) is that you can buy your cards anywhere. I believe that most chip/smart cards are proprietary and that is one of the reasons that they are so expensive relative to mag stripe cards. Cost is the main reason that most owners with chip systems are almost forced to charge for the cards.

CCIs cards are attractive, virtually error-free and reasonably priced so that is not an issue for me.


Can you give us a general idea of card costs? As a percentage of revenue, or perhaps a card to sales revenue. MAG users tend to give away the card, but I have not seen much in the way for real costs. I have posted my chip card costs before, but for anyone who missed it. I am going thru 1 card for about every $25-$20 in gross revenue, so that means my card costs are about 3% of revenue, of which I collect about 1/2, so my real on going cost to keep a card system is about 1.62%. As we talked about, the float was near 4% so I am doing OK.
Care to share some real numbers?
How does this compare to a typical mag store?

[Anonymous]

I just saw a ad in the Journal for the ESD cyberwash mag system and it said free tech support. I wonder if that is for the life of the system and 24 hours.

[n175h]

CCI,

If I install your system as a retrofit to coin inside my store, in 3 years when I replace my 14 Maytag toploaders, do I remove the card readers and install them into the new machines, or do I get new ones with the machine?

David

[pete f]

PeteF,

As I said when I posted my results for your store that a card system is not always the best option. You said that your biggest reason was that your store was too small to warrant a card system, you did not mention that you also thought that you would loose 15% of your customers for changing to it! This feeling that customers "Hate" card systems is one I do not agree with, sure there are some people who don't like change but I would be shocked to think it was 15% of your customer base. Customers who I've talked to who said they did not like the card system, actually did not care about the card system they were more upset about how the store was run and that there was no one to help them on their first card system experience. Once I walked these customers though the experience and "sold" them on the concepts and how it helps them they seemed to be very happy.

Pete, for you and your store it's a touch decision, I see it as a way for you to make thousands more a year. It seems that from your response that you believe that your customers won't like it and will boycott your store. I'm not sure how to make you fee otherwise except to offer you phone numbers to some of my other users who you could have these discussions. Bottom line, as I said before the decision is up to you, thanks for the opportunity to show a possibility!

This thread is on fire, I think it will top an all time high.
You have to remember I am on all sides of the card game. I have a coin store up against a card store, I have card stores against coin stores and coin against coin. Remember I have unattended stores, so no attendant to hold hands or reason with. I have observations on the whole thing and how one reacts against the other, what customers prefer. The 15% I threw out is real. Some of that may not be profitable business to a card store anyway. As someone posted, and happens, a person walks in, their dryer just broke, they get a card, put a couple bucks on it, spend it, you never see them again. You just lost money. Some of them choose to go elsewhere rather than fool with a card. The customer who does the comforter every 6 months will prefer coin mats, but will use a nice card mat nearby, getting a new card. These are not profitable customers. What I have seen, and heard, is a general bitch about having to put money on card that may