Debate?

[Kitty]

There are many things Id like to know from others perspective. What do you see the industry to be today, and where do you see it 5 years from now?

Because of research I have done I am curious to know some things. Who knows the financial status of the manufactureres, are they pressing for new construction to boost sales? How are the distributors doing? We have all found many distributors going into the business, some across the street from stores they sold.....I realize that in business there at times very little ethics involved, but should the CLA speak abvout the ethical behaviours of distributors within their publication? I have found there is only so much of the pie to go around and should the CLA be protecting the slices of pie that are already being eaten, or should they be more concerned with making the slices smaller? ....What is your take on the industry itself?

I know, why most of us are members of the CLA and for the 300 bucks a year it is not such a huge issue. But what are the seasoned operators getting for these funds? The Journal rarely discusses the old timers, how they do and how they survive in this crazy industry. The stories talk about the big, new 5K sq ft store.....but there is never any talk about profitability.....

For the new guys the CLA is instrumental with the inforamtion they can get. And that is wonderful information and they should be happy the association is there willing to help. But, is the assocaiation there only for these potential investors??? Is the seasoned operator merely sending in their yearly dues to the CLA to fund new competition??? It is nice to have an association behind you for legislature issues, but those issues are few and far between. It has been years since there have been any serious issues that need attention. So, what is it that the seasoned operator gets from the association?

I am merely curious to your stand as I am very unsure as to what it is the assiociation is supposed to be doing for operators Thanks, Kitty

[mike]

I believe that we are in a "sunset" industry as far as unattended, no service mats go.
As working class rental housing stock is replaced with new projects and apartments, most if not all of these contain laundry rooms in common, unlike projects in the past.
Most people believe it is cheaper to own your own machine.
We are chasing a smaller pie all the time.

Conversely, I believe that drop-off is on the rise.
I only speak for my own market (inner city)

Kitty, don't worry about how the manufacturers and distributors are doing. First of all, it is of no concern to us, and second, we have no input anyway. They will live or die as a result of their success in serving the marketplace. We aren't going to try to keep huebsch in business in spite of the fact they make a crappy stack dryer.
American dryer and Wascomat will predominate, and so it should, until a better dryer comes along. Many dryer companies have gone belly up (think about that when ordering new machines, try and get parts for an edsel !, or a hoyt)
There will always be enough market for at least one good washer and one good dryer.

[mike]

As for the CLA, I was a member, it did nothing for me (particularly because many of the "benefits" were not available to me in Canada.)
I really don't know about their funding, but I think they must get most of their money from the manufacturers.
Even if nobody paid to join, there would still be a cleanshow, paid for by the manufacturers directly. They have machines to sell !
I agree with the other observations that you must watch out for yourself, and not buy into their "new store story". It's like the clerk down at the electonics store saying which t.v. is the best. He doesn't make any of them, and may not even be on commission, but he does sell t.v.'s.
You seem to be surprised that they are not an unbiased opinion like consumers reports. I envy your faith in people, but must admit to being more of a cynic.

[pete f]

Kitty, I respect your questions, but isn't this CLA horse dead yet?

Not really that much has changed in the last 5 years, I do not see a big change in the next 5 years. The l'mat biz, like real estate, is a slow moving trend. Becuase in part we depend on the real estate biz, we move with it. Mike's comments were true, we may get smaller pie slices every year. Machines will get more economical to run, everything will then seem to remain the same, ie, return on the biz.

[Anonymous]

Everyone is in business to make money - period. Distributors will try to sell as many stores and equipment as they can. They are not in business to be loyal, why should they. What is in it for them to not sell equipment to someone that wants to build a mat. Now some take a more long term view of you as a customer, but others are in it for a quick buck. Think of it this way, if one won't sell to someone then another will.

Manufacturers are the same way, if they only sold replacement equipment they would go out of business - frontloaders last 10-15 years or longer. Thus, they strive to sell more new equipment for more new stores. Thats life, sorry.

[Kitty]

You guys, I know what your saying regarding the manufacturers and distribs, but where does the CLA fit in, in the grand scheme of things? I have my eyes wide open and realize everyone wants to make money, it is the name of the game. My questions regarding the financial status of the manufacturer was merely to inquire into the status of where things are going. Is it the manufacturers that steers the CLA? I was under the assumption that the CLA was for the laundry industry owner/operators. Pete, bear with me here on this issue as I have been fueled by another.......but what as an operator are you getting from the CLA? I know that the equipment last long, longer for those of us who strive hard to keep the equip in tip top form, but is the CLA working for the manufacturers or the poor laundry guy? I want that questioned answered.

[Kitty]

PS

I have posted on the CLA site and got one response from the Chairman of the Board. I asked my questions and have yet to get a response, I suppose I won't until after the holiday. However, there is an interesting post regarding what operators think about the Industry trends and we are to post or send an email about any thoughts to his quuestions. THey are doing a a Journal profile in January.......

[Anonymous]

The CLA has a problem that is common in many industry associations - it has too many diverse constituancies. If the organization was one of just laundromat owners it could and would do all that you ask. But as in many industries, there are not enough small guys that choose to participate to make such an organization viable. Thus, the big guys - that is the manufacturers and distributors tend to have a disproportionate role in the organization because they provide a large portion of the funding.

If you could come up with a way to make all laundromats participate then you could have an organization that would represent only their interests. But alas, laundry owners do not all have the same interests so you would end up with certain types of owners controlling that association.

This organization is better than some and worse than others. The worst thing about it is that all too often when you have an idea you get lip service from them and that is the end of it.

[Kitty]

So, what are the dues doing for the member? If CLA needs the manufacturers and the new operators, then please tell me why the seasoned operator pays the dues?? Just because we always have?? This is simply a debate issue, and as Pete said quit beating the horse, but why do the CLA advertise to the seasoned operator? Is it stupid to give them money when plainly the operator is the last on the totem pole?

[Anonymous]

If I recall you had a problem with water restrictions - that is the type thing the CLA can help with. You should probably look at it as an investment. Plus, you have to pay up if you want their insurance. Since there is not a competing organization, you don't really have a choice.

I guess each owner must evaluate if belonging is worth the $200 or so that it costs. There is no one right answer.

[Rondo]

My dues and insurance is up in about a month and if I can find a lower liablity insurace I'm droping the CLA. I find that this board give you far more info and one on one help than the CLA and it's free. The dues that I have paid has gotten me nothing, I already opperate in a state that has a sales tax on laundromats and I don't believe we will ever have a water shortage here so what can the CLA do for me? My water company is about to be bought out by a huge European corp., can the CLA stop that? I don't think so. CLA - See You Later.

[Kitty]

I am not saying that we should all drop the association dues, but I am wondering why my questions are ingnored when I ask the CLA directly what it is they are doing for current operators.

As far as the water shortage in our town, we never contacted the CLA for help. We handled the situation on our own. However, in the neighboring town, Daves aunt and uncles mat had issues. The town cut the business hours for the mat during the water crisis. The CLA did a short story about the problem, but were unable to help any. They tried to no avail.

I know all associations cannot be everything to everbody, but what I am seeking is the truth about the CLA. The research I did intrigued me further into this issue....It is obvious the manufacturers are behind them and finance a great deal to them. The newbie buys the kits and utilizes the information they have gathered and the kits they put together to entice them into an investment. But, someone please tell me why the older operators are paying dues??? What is it they do for these store owners? They are in business to promote more business, and in a staturated, mature market, how does that help the old timers? Am I totally off base here?

[Lar Hylobates]

You know I hate to waste words on lost cause topics, but here goes.

You want to know the truth.

Once upon a time some schmuch like you or me was sitting around counting a jar of change so that he and his family could get enough Taco Bell to survive another day and pondering to himself...how am I to earn some cash??

He suddenly realized that someone would give him $200.00 if he could provide a forum of information and communication, a convenience or a perceived convenience. One thing led to another and now we all want to go to Vegas in August!

The CLA was created to turn a buck, plain and simple.

A magazine publisher thinks of a new magazine that will be a vehicle for advertising. The publisher already exists and has advertisers waiting for a vehicle. You must understand this concept before you can continue to the next step in life. The title and content of the magazine comes SECOND to the Advertisers money!

The superbowl is not about a game. The football is a mere "vehicle" to carry the money and keep the peasants purchasing.

Anymore? Write to StoneColdKiller

[Kitty]

And that is probably the truth in a nutshell, but I am going to be a ball buster and not tolerate the association to pacify me with words that do not answer the questions. Be it as it may, simply don't BS the operators. If anyone asks a direct question do not evade the question and do not give that lip service crap. I am not one to be pacified and I simply want the assocaiation to get with it. They cannot have their cake and eat it too......If they are an association that puts their loyalty to the manufacturers and distribs than great for them. But do not sell the operator as an assocaiation for the operator. But it is a fact that they need the operators to be behind them, therefore even though the manufacturers foot many bills they should show some integrity into this industry. It is a food chain here...and they should perserve it.

[Anonymous]

Kitty, if you want feedback from the CLA you cannot post on their BBS - they still operate in the 1980's. You must pick up the phone and call Brian Wallace. Generally, he tries to be helpful when you speak to him on the phone. I would give that one more try before you give up on the organization.

[CharlieS]

I agree with Kirby. I attended the most recent CLA conference, and as always, came away with something that made the trip worth the effort. The tax seminar alone was full of information that paid for the trip. Jeff Deals presentation on the viability of water recycling was appreciated, since we are emerging from a major drought. Last year in Vegas, one of the speakers was an owner of 4 unattended mats. His tips were some of the best I've ever heard. You never know what you'll hear. The goal is to glean the nuggets, nudge you out of the box. If we only hear a limited set of thoughts, we will have a limited set of thoughts.

It is absolutely true that the organization is a joint manufacturer/operator organization, and as such, there are conflicts of interest. Nonetheless, there is no other organization that represents our common interests as operators. I don't see any grass roots groundswell to create one.

That doesn't mean that it doesn't serve some purposes. I find the insurance program to be competitive, other don't. I have always received good training, and the opportunity to speak at length with other operators has given me a lot of insight into this business. Sure, this forum also helps. But the smart operator uses ALL the resources that are available to him/her. The key is to recognize the limitations of those resources, as well as any bias they might have. The cost is minor.

Charlie

[buddy]

I don't understand why are we trying to convert an organization whose interest do not line up with ours?

Isn't this a Capitalist Country? people have choices - if we don't like to do business with certain organization then we drop them- It's just that simple. There is no reason to impose our ways to other organization. Let the free economy decide who wins and who loses.

[Kitty]

No conversion, just demand what they advertise. They claim to be an asset to the operator, the newbie. Please tell me what they do for the 5+ year operator. I don't think much. They placate with useless surveys and biased research. The truth is not reported and you all know they are weak with reporting useful data. Do you not feel the association insulrs your intelligece? It has been suggested to me, that if I feel stongly with isues I should contact Mr Wallace. But, there is no need for me to contact anyone, as I am a mere"employee,my thoughts will be trashed with lunch. I hate I started this research, as this isues has me baffled.

Is it only me that sees a large number of operators sending in yearly dues that do not gain the operator anything of substance, year after year? Why stay a member? Why stay when it is clear all invloved in this industry are seeking different objectives and thus do not have the same goals. Manufacturers want to sell more stores, distributors too. It is the key to their survival. Entice new people everyday to look into the profitability of a mat and keep selling. The operator, wants to ward off competition and keep the expensive equipment working for as many years possible. Yeah, I can see the objectives are the same and an association can easily represent both..baaahahaha!... I realize no one has to be a member, do not have to send dues, and can avoid the membership. However, they advertise they are the experts, they claim to represent the operators. We see saturated markets, free dry trends starting and 75 cents topload prices due to oversaturated markets. It is getting harder and harder to be profitable and successful. How can they keep all entities of the industry happy as the objectives are so different,. Why do you all tolerate this fact that the CLA isn't what they claim and you are simply funding new competition. The CLA is merely saying they are for you but really aren't. My thoughts don't mean :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:, only you gurus can make a difference. You'd have to see it as I do, and bitch and complain about how they provide their services to the operator, only then will you guys be heard in the industry, you are being ignored. They advertise to be on your side, make them prove it, 'cause there actions are showing a totally different agenda.

[Howard]

Kitty,
It is a lot easier to effect change from the inside out (as versus from the outside in). Why don't you pony up the $200 and work from the inside of the organization for change. Or, just get off of the inflatable soapbox.

[buddy]

Kitty, That is exactly my point. If CLA does not provide services that they advertise or provide sub-standard services then just
don't subscribe to CLA membership. When enough people realize this, they will have two choices - Close down or Change their ways.

One thing CLA does not realize is that they may get money from dealers and manufactirers for advertisement, but only because there is a large subscription and reader base. Once membership goes down to null, dealers and manufacturers would be the first ones to run and leave them dry.

If CLA has large membership and reader base, they will have no trouble finding sponsors and advertisers, If membership goes down there won't be any advertisers. Alieanating your members
to appease advertisers is BAD BUSINESS POLICY.

[Kitty]

EXACTLY!!! However, merely cancelling a membership will not neccessarily open the eyes of the association. The operators that are currently memebers or those thinking of joining need to ask the questions I have put on the table. Before one cancels and throws in the towel, CLA should be confronted with who and what the association stands for and whether or not they can successfully represent all that are currently involved. Even though you do not have to be a member, they advertise they are important to the operator. I suggest they prove it. If they believe they can be an instrumental tool for all the participants then they must be asked to do a better job for the operator. Howard suggests I get off the soap box, sorry this bores you Howard, but I find it very interesting that you simply say put up or shut up. Any changes will take numbers, not an employee who simply noticed the differences regarding the agendas of all involved in the association. I have posted a thread to the CLA site and we will see if they answer the questions I have put forth. The debate continues....

[pete f]

This horse rolled over and dies, is now dog food.

Here are the facts as pointed out by everyone:

The CLA is there if you want it. They have something for everyone, or not enough for anyone, your choice.

They are not there to control the market or make sure a new buyer makes a buck. Take thier info, do what you want with it.

I do not understand what you are looking for in a reply. I agree, call CLA directly and get the answers from the (dead) horse's mouth!

[Kitty]

I cannot believe some say it is what is and take what you get or don't use it. Changes can be made and notice can be taken. It isn't a dead horse.......

[Howard]

I never met a secretary that didn't know how to run the company better then management.

Sadly for the company or organization, the same person that could fix everything at the water cooler just doesn't have time to put it in writing; with goals, methods, and means.

Set an agenda. Present a case for action by the public (i.e. members). Detail what the end results will be and how to get there. List the benefits that derive from your re-organization. Explain financing, fund raising, and fund disbursement (with associated results). Show the level and type of association activity ands its benefits, as compared to the present oprganization. And so on...

Quit being a radical student. It is easy to redistribute the wealth of the world (until you have some of your own), reorganize what you don't have an investment in, and set the rules for everyone else to abide by (when responsibility remains semantics).

A "debate", as you titled this thread, takes two sides, two people, two disparate thoughts. So far, it is you versus who?

[Kitty]

Now Howard, I am management.....and I never said I could run the CLA, a laundromat, yes indeed I can and I do.

As far as your idea? Why set forth an agenda, or try to
re organize the association as you are all happy with the current objectives the CLA offers you, the operator. You have made it crystal clear that I am the only way who sees what I see, therefore it is obvious there is no need for changes.

I give up, the horse is dead. But I will be very interested in seeing if my post comes to life on the CLA board and whether they find the questions worth answering.

[pete f]

I think that CLA board is another dead horse. Poor pony never had a chance. I'll check it in a few months and see if you got a reply yet.

I have owned a different type business and was a memeber of that national association. I do not remember getting much from it, but I got a few things. I got a magazine like the Journal every month. I like seeing the ads for new stuff, and whatever is new going on. It is useful to me. Trade shows another useful to me thing. The other association had discount visa and mc merchant processing, which was useful to me. CLA has insurance, which is useful to me. This is what we mean by you join to get what you want, if there is nothing you don't join. CLA has asked me to be part of thier organization in some way, I told them to let me know what and when and I would help if I could. Most everyone volunteers thier time. I think your veiws are off base Kitty, but I do admire your gumption.

[Lar Hylobates]

I don't know about the rest of you, but all I'm looking for is more income than last month, last week and yesterday. As long as that happens I continue to enjoy life with my family and wouldn't be able to contact the CLA on my best day.

Good luck monkey

P.S> As soon as the laundry quits growing, I'll dump it and be somewhere else tomorrow.