Bad Boiler Install In Seattle Area / Eggs win by 1

[anonymous]

After years of doing our own installations, I decided I would have my distributor line up a few install jobs. Guess I'm getting old and lazy. Everything was hunky-dorry through 3 small retrofits.

Then it happened.............. a simple Hamilton Evo 99 two-unit boiler installation, replacing two old Hamilton units, turned into a nightmare. The plumbing company did not send the plumber who had installed an identical system, but someone who knew nothing about the Evo 99! The only reason my distributor chose this plumbing company in the first place was because they had someone who was knowledgable about the system..... but I got the rookie!!!!!!!

I not only got a bill that included labor for installing the venting contrary to Hamilton's instructions, but was billed 19 man-hours extra for them coming back to fix their own errors.

When all was said and done, they charged over 50 man hours to switch out 2 small boilers, connect the plumbing manifold that was provided by Hamilton, and cut/glue the PVC vent pipes.

We had installed the previous, bulkier system ourselves (including a new tank, for crying outloud)..... 24 man-hours total.

The head-honcho at the plumbing company came up with his installer in tow, could not answer any of my questions about why this, that, and the other thing was/wasn't done, and explained that when his people finally got to the venting, they were "really tired", and (naturally) they installed it wrong.

Naturally??????..... I had corrosive condensate raining down on our heads everytime we walked by to the cash drawer!

For two weeks.

Until they decided to come back.

Head-honcho knocked $500 off the bill, and said it was fair.

When all was said and done, the installation cost the same as what I paid for one Evo 99 boiler with pumps, etc.

Moral of story...... even if it's your trusty distributor who lines up an installer/plumber/what-have-you, ALWAYS have them come up first and give a job quote.

I made the mistake in thinking the professionals would be able to work as fast as us non-pros.

Egg on my face !!!!!!!!!!!!!!


P.S. As far as the Hamilton Evo 99's are concerned ....... they are really sweet units. Compact little power-houses; all enclosed units that are WAY efficient.

Bubbles

[Anonymous]

What was the cost for the units and cost for the labor?

[Chuckels]

I really try not to generalize but plumbers are a breed unto themselves. Low tech and way to belicose. Always get the dopes to quote with a performance clause instead of T&M. An electricians point of view in CA anyway.

I was quoted two evo 99s with manifold and a 200 gal storage tank for a whopping $33k.

The Takagi Mobius units 4-5 inline are looking pretty good in comparison. I currently run 3 paloma 24s at my other mat and although they are a bit slow when the whole store is cranking I have never had a complaint. The 4 unit Takagi system with controler was quoted at $9,800 from Low Energy Systems.

Chuckles

[laundryboy]

Your getting a "List Price". Take off at least 35%! Then ask for the factory incentives.

[Anonymous]

Have you taken a look at The Cyclone by Ao smith its a high eff unit. You can buy them from Partsking.com for $3350
http://www.partsking.com/cart.php?m=plist&c=10&n=AO+Smith

They look like a nice unit and the price looks good. Check Ao smiths web page for stats.
I do not own one, but will consider it in the future.
good luck

[anonymous]

2 Evo 99 units with pumps, neutralizer kits, concentric vent kits, plumbing manifold set up for 3 units (just in case I ever need to add one more Evo 99), and the stand:

$9,544.00 plus shipping and tax. Purchased from Western State Design in Woodenville, WA. They were having a mini equipment show, and gave a small discount. Also, a Hamilton engineer was there with an Evo 99 unit, and Hamilton was giving a small discount, too.

Installer's bill was originally $4,748.14 (with tax), but they took off a stupendous $500.

Remember, this comes in kit form, and the amount of extra materials is small. Some PVC Shedule 40 and glue, a little copper pipe, and some flex gas hose. All my wiring was in place from the previous units, as was the rigid gas pipe leading up to the boilers. I used my existing tank after flushing it.... it's not that old.

Have any of you who are interested in the Evo 99 units called Hamilton Engineering directly? The first Hamilton units I installed I purchased
direct from them, with ALL the plumbing (from the tank to the boilers) pre-assembled. We just lifted it up and screwed it in.

Call Hamilton and see if you can get a price. Also, their engineers love to answer any techie questions.

Bubbles

[CharlieS]

I recently installed a single EVO 99 in one of my rental properties, by myself with a single helper, in about 8 hours (16 total man hours). This was with an existing tank. Hamilton provided a pre-plumbed hookup to my specs. Always take that option. Hamilton says that 2 out of 3 non-preplumbed installations of the EVO99 have problems related to the install.

The machine is running great. This is my second unit. I hired my plumbers to do the first, while I helped (that may have cost me). Even then, the total install cost was $749 for labor, plus $ 458 for materials I purchased myself.

I'm a Hamilton dealer, so I'm a little biased. But like the Remington razor, I became a dealer because I like the product and the company is great.

But for $33K, I'll put in two units and take a working vacation! This is outrageous.

Charlie

[CharlieS]

Ahh, Beverly Hills. Missed that part. Swimming pools. Movie stars.

Charlie

[Chuckels]

Apples and Apples. To be fair the details of the quote I received are:

2 ea. Evo 99 HC-399 $21,270
2 ea. pumps PL-55 $2,798
2 pack Manifold $3,483
200 gal tank $4,301

The quote was directly from Hamilton. I assume the other Evo 99s that have been mentioned here were the smaller HC-199s. I would hope so anyway. In any event do the prices listed above seem reasonable?

Chuckles

[CharlieS]

Different Ball Game. I didn't realize you were gettting the new big boys.

However, why are you getting so much capacity? Do you really need that much? What's your monthly water usage in gallons?

I still think that water heater needs are grossly overestimated by the industry.

Charlie

[Anonymous]

Good catch, almost 800,000 BTU/HR output is a huge amount of hotwater in this day and age. Round numbers assuming 50 degree incoming water and 120 output that comes out to over 1,300 gallons of hot water per hour every hour with both units running. That is a lot of hot water.

[laundryboy]

Good point about the over estimates. I have two stores, each with a pair of the Evo99's (small). I have NEVER need to run both units at the same time at either store.

[CharlieS]

My largest store uses about 220,000 gallons a month of water, with 32 washers totalling 950 pounds of capacity.

I have two Hamilton 270K BTU water heaters, each with an hour meter. I set the first at 120 degrees, the second at 115, alternating about every 3 months.

The second water heater averages less than an hour per week of usage. In other words, its mainly just a backup. One would be plenty.

I just installed a single EVO 99 (199K BTU), in another mat that averages about 150,000 gallons a month, replacing a 900K BTU heater. I've not had a single complaint about not enough hot water. That install took about 10 hours of plumbers time, with no tank replacement.

Charlie

Charlie

[Chuckels]

We currently use about 160,000 gal per month and will increase to about 200,000 per month within the next yr. Our incoming water is about 60F. From the antectodal information here I should be able to get by with two HC-199s and at worst have to add a third unit later. Is it reasonable to expect a deal for a two unit system w/o tank for under $10k?

Chuckles

[CharlieS]

Yes. Let me know if you can't find it. I don't know the cost of the stack rack, if you need that, but the system will come in for that or less, without installation and without a tank, but preplumbed. If you want, you can PM your phone number to me, I'll be glad to give you more info.

Charlie

[anonymous]

We currently use about 160,000 gal per month and will increase to about 200,000 per month within the next yr. Our incoming water is about 60F. From the antectodal information here I should be able to get by with two HC-199s and at worst have to add a third unit later. Is it reasonable to expect a deal for a two unit system w/o tank for under $10k?

Chuckles

As the first post on this thread says, I bought what you are looking at for under $10K. Call Hamilton and have them calculate your BTU requirements. Ask them how much your ideal system would cost. I bought my first system direct from Hamilton. This time, I bought the Evo 99s from my distributor, just because they were running a small special.

The Evo 99s: two HC-199s, with the plumbing manifold set for a third unit if needed, pumps, rack, filters, and vent kit. Unless half my competitors crash and burn, I won't need a third unit.

Last water bill was for 216,000 gal. of water in August (traditionally my slowest month), and my second unit hardly ever came on during that period. Same so far this month with more customers. Second unit comes on briefly just to give a boost at peak times. First unit is set at 125 degrees, and second unit is set at 120 degrees. However, I have an all front-load store, so my BTU requirements are less than stores with top-loaders.

I had Tom Towry at Hamilton calculate the BTU's I was likely to require at peak times, and he recommended 2 of the smaller HC-199 units. It was my idea to have them build the plumbing for a 3rd unit..... Tom said I probably wouldn't need it. Looks like he was spot on.

These Evo units are FAST. Next time I need to buy a tank, I'm going way down in size.

Bubbles