Circuit breakers & Water cut off valves

[MyLaundry]

I am building a new store with new power panel for the equipment. My electrician told me that based on Electrical Codes, the smallest commercial circuit breaker I can use is 20 amps. However, when I look at the equipment manual, the water heater, small washers and stack dryers both require no more than 15 amps circuit breaker for each machine. Is my electrician telling me the truth ? Or he has other reasons for telling me 20 amps minimum ?? Using a 20 amps circuit breaker in place of 15 amps recommended, could it cause big problems ?

Hope somebody can help me on this matter.

[BWJR]

How many small washers are you putting on each circuit?
If you put more than two and they all go into spin at the same time, there is a good chance that the breaker will pop. If you are using 12 gauge wire and a 20 amp breaker you should be fine, but you must follow the code, and if he is a lic Electrician,; he should know and it would be foolish for him to lie to risk his lic. Are you having a Electrical Inspector check his work? That is the answer to all your questions.

BWJR

[CharlieS]

Of course, the code is the final word, but the easiest way to get an answer to this question is to run it past your local electrical inspector. If he approves the 15 amp circuits, thats all you need.

As to the danger, there are two potential problem areas. The first is that you must design your panel based upon the circuit potential load. Therefore, you may not be able to place as many 20 amp breakers in a box as you could 15 amp breakers. Second, the only real danger is that you could have a problem in a machine which would not trip a 20 amp breaker, but would trip a 15 amp breaker. In reality, this is not an issue. A 20 amp circuit will be run with 12 gauge wire, and a 15 amp with 14 gauge wire. The circuitry will thus handle the hire load. Your appliance will generally blow either a 15 or 20 amp breaker if a short develops. In your house, your kitchen is usually wired for 20 amps, and the laundry as well. In fact, there is no harm from wiring your entire house as 20 amps.

Bottom line, unless it adds significant additional expense, don't worry about it.

Charlie

[Anonymous]

It is possible what he was getting at is the code may require a minimum of #12 wire which is rated to carry 20 amps, but you might be able to do that and install a lower (15 amp) breaker.

[MyLaundry]

My electrician said he just follow the electrical plan that the architect gave. On the plan, I found out there is an individual 1 pole, #12, 20 amps breaker for each pocket of the stack dryer. That means, each stack dryer has two circuit breakers, one for the top and one for the bottom. Is this overkill ?

But interestingly, the plan shows 8X20lb washers on one 3 pole, #10, 30 amps breaker. 7X30 lb washers on one 3 pole, #8, 40 amps breaker. 5X40 lb washers on one 3 pole, #10, 30 amps breaker. 4X60 lb washers on one 3 pole, #8, 40 amps breaker. In each case, the CD is the same, which is 3/4".

I really don't feel comfortable with this kind of layout. The contractor may want to save some labor with mutiple washers on one breaker.

My store does need electrical inspection at the end. I don't know how they are going to get by.

[MyLaundry]

Thanks Charlie & Kirby for your deep and precise analysis. I can rest on the 15 or 20 amps matter.

But more issues arising...........
My electrician said he just follow the electrical plan that the architect gave. On the plan, I found out there is an individual 1 pole, #12, 20 amps breaker for each pocket of the stack dryer. That means, each stack dryer has two circuit breakers, one for the top and one for the bottom. Is this overkill ?

But interestingly, the plan shows 8X20lb washers on one 3 pole, #10, 30 amps breaker. 7X30 lb washers on one 3 pole, #8, 40 amps breaker. 5X40 lb washers on one 3 pole, #10, 30 amps breaker. 4X60 lb washers on one 3 pole, #8, 40 amps breaker. In each case, the CD is the same, which is 3/4".

I really don't feel comfortable with this kind of layout. The contractor may want to save some labor with mutiple washers on one breaker.

My store does need electrical inspection at the end. I don't know how they are going to get by. Or because this layout is perfectly legal and conform to the code, but they just don't care the risk of burning machine down ??

[MSKLAUNDRY.]

Having separate breakers for top and bottom is a good idea. It will allow you to shut off the bottom to service while letting the top stay on. The reverse however is not possible in the case of ADC dryer,s as the power to the computer is tapped off the tops power supply.

As to the main branch circuit for each bank of washer that is fine as long as the breakers are rated accordingly. You still need a breaker for each washer. The branch breakers current seem a little low. But hey if they same its OK than let it be. You will quickly find out after they are all running with a load in them after you open. Just let the electrician know that if you start blowing breakers after you open then he/she will need to change them out to a higher one as part of the contract for free.

I really doubt that the inspector will really be looking that closely anyway. I have seen some pretty messed up stuff pass inspection in the past.

[Anonymous]

Marc are you sure about the ADC's??? I have separate shut-off switches to the tops and bottoms of my ADC-236 and I could have sworne that the front displayes from the computer go on and off separately. I'll have to double check that.

[TJB]

The electrician should install a DEDICATED circuit for each washer and dryer. Each washer will have a rating for FLA (full load amps) which is how you size your wire and breaker. Also each washer should have a disconnect switch located behind the washer,or within site of the washer or dryer. The stacked dryers are normally designed to operate on one circuit per stacked dryer. I installed some dexter stacks last week, they require one single pole 30 amp breaker per dryer. BE CAREFUL, I have been a licensed electrician for 24 years and I have seen a lot of very poor quality electrical wiring being done by unqualified people. Also I have seen a lot of jobs messed up by a unqualified architects, it sounds like he or she is way off base. A decent electrician should know the code and tell you the plans are incorrect. Also don't be skimpy on conduit size, it's always nice to have room for future. Good luck!

[Anonymous]

TJB - there is nothing wrong with over sizing the wire and then using a smaller breaker to protect the equipment. The other way (small wire large breaker) is obviously dangerous. The former was a common practice when I worked in chemical plant operations. By putting in larger wires you made it possible to replace equipment at a future date with larger (higher amperage requirement) equipment by just changing a breaker with no need to rewire.

[TTLES]

Kirby, Mark is probably referring to the AD330....Your 236's are a totatally different animal. When American saw what a piece of junk the Twinstar was, They just had to get into the market with their own piece of junk....The 330. !!!!!
If I was building a store... Each dryer pocket would have have its own breaker.. if they were electricly independant !!! The AD 236, 530, IdC(Cissel) Alliance STO300. (this machine has some wiring flexability)
All washers should be on their own dedicated circuit, NO EXCEPTIONS. I also prefer a disconnect behind EVERY MACHINE, WASHER AND DRYER.
I would double and tripple check EVERYTHING that an architect puts in the plans. I would pay someone to oversee the plans, and all of the trades involved, to make sure that the end result is what you want. Usually, The last guy in the store (The machine installer or even your service tech) has to deal with all the problems caused buy your architect and the other trades. And usually you wind up paying for it with every service call to follow !!
By the way, I would always use a minimum of a 20 amp circuit., I think it is foolish not to.

[MyLaundry]

Since the main circuit breakers are designed as I mentioned above (and no change will be made to these main panels), I am going to request the electrician to put sub-panels at each bank of washers. By doing this, I can make each washer to have individual 20 amps circuit breaker at the sub-panel. Is this also a correct way to make things right and better ? Or any other alternative ?

[Anonymous]

Be very careful! If the equipment calls for a 15 amp overload protection and you install 20 amps you may be risking potential damage to the equipment. Further, your warrantee might be null and void if you don't follow their requirements for overload protection.

[MSKLAUNDRY.]

In the case of dryers the breaker is mainly to trip in case of a short or a failure in the motor or other 120 volt circuit. All other stuff in most dryers made today are lower voltage and is fused internally. A 20 amp breaker per pocket is acceptable although a 15 will usually suffice. If you run 2 pockets (top + bottom) a 20 amp one is a minimum, and some dryers will require a 30 a\like the Dexter or Dexter made Continental's.

[pete f]

When I moved my store the electrician tried to bank washers on one breaker, they where 3 phase washers, and I was told this was "OK" I said NO! and demanded a breaker for every washer. Glad I did , do not settle for anything less. As for dryers, I put in Dexter's, they take one 30 amp breaker per dryer, both pockets. Some dryers have 2 breaker per, one each pocket. If that is the case then separate breakers also. For wire size no problem going up a size, it might actually save you a little money in electric bill..

[Pete_tx]

I agree with one breaker per machine.

Also, if you're building new make sure you have a water cut off valve on each bank of washers for both hot and cold.

pete

[Coinwash]

We here at Coinwash recommend ball valves cut offs.

In general, ball valves offer many advantages when contrasted with other valve types. They provide superior ease of operation and can maintain and regulate high volume, high pressure and high temperature flow. Most ball valves offer rugged construction providing for a long service life, and a comparably low cost. Additionally, the design of the regulating element allows the valve to function without the complications of side loads, typical of butterfly or globe valves, and the valve design permits inspection and repair of seats and seals without removing the valves’ body from the line

[MSKLAUNDRY.]

AND MAKE SURE THE BALL VALVES ARE FULL PORT!!!

Full port valves do not reduce the flow of the water through it. A non full port has a small ball and will reduce the flow.